Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by Voland

More details emerge about the autopsy carried out by turkish forensics. Not only were several of the dead shot in the back, also in the back of the head, many shots were apparently fired from less than 45 cm away. And six of the passengers of the Mavi Marmara are missing.......


.France24 - Turkish activists' bodies riddled with bullets, says autopsy report

We will have to rely on that person's statements for now, but even if everything he said is true about the shots to the face and the back of the head, and even to the back. We all saw the footage of the violent attacks by those so called 'peace activists'. It looked like a lynch mob on the top deck of that ship. The soldiers were being brutally assaulted with knives, clubs, and metal rods in hand to hand combat.
I would be surprised if those shots had not been at close range. That seems very logical from what we've seen of the fighting on board which was in close quarters. So the violent Jihadis who stated their intentions of becoming martyrs were 45cm away when they were shot in self defense? Would that put them close enough to the IDF soldiers to, say, hit them with metal rods or stab them with knives?

That's consistent with what we've seen in the footage so far:

YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers (With Sound)

And also, some of the 'peace activists' were wearing bullet proof vests:

http://dover.idf.il/NR/rdonlyres/F0A...ropped_big.jpg

We can argue about the wisdom of landing forces on that ship, and even the need to use deadly force in the face of such vicious attacks by a well trained bunch of Jihadist terrorists on the Marmara, but let's not get into premature interpretations of forensics opinions. The only conclusions if any that we can draw from the fact that someone was shot multiple times in the face and the head are that the intention was not merely to wound him. But no one is denying that as a last resort, the soldiers had to use deadly force in self defense. Remember, apparently two soldiers were also shot when guns were taken off a couple of their wounded comrades. And Israel has stated that the soldiers were finally authorized to use deadly force since they were faced with extremely violent and life-threatening attacks by the activists.

Also, forensics is a tricky science, and for decades there were theories about a "magic bullet" that killed President Kennedy, precisely because it is sometimes difficult to accurately reconstruct the motion of the target when it was shot. It took decades, and 3D computer models to finally put that theory of the "magic bullet" to rest, so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the statements of this one guy just a few days after these events.

No one is disputing that deadly force was used as a last resort. And I don't know how many bullets even the best trained cop or soldier would have expended in such close quarters, when they feel their life threatened, and maybe have a broken arm, or knife wound. I don't know. And neither do you.

"Peace activist" stabbing IDF soldier


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P.S. See also my reply to your earlier post:

Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by NYorker

Not surprising that Israel again is going to lie and scheme it's way out of breaking international laws (furthermore if it has nothing to hide then why not allow the release of the peace activists phones and recording devices and allow Israeli commando's to be questioned in order to clear up its name?).... I agree with Rahmota... when are Israel's immoral acts going to be brought to justice??

Demonstrate that they broke international law! I won't hold my breath because you won't be able to. Additionally, many of the international laws that are out there only have to be followed if you signed them.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

Really? Before they boarded the ship, the commandos opened fire according to some accounts.

You enjoy your day, as well.

Really? All the video evidence shows otherwise. Like I said, it's documented fact, on video, that the commandos started out with non-lethal force. I saw it for myself when I viewed a soldier pull out a paintball gun and this was after his buddies were swarmed under and were being beat to death.

cheers!

Originally Posted by Rahmota

yeah I know it is sad to see that the government wont stand behind its commitment to protect international waters from murdering pirates like the Israelis.

Still it would be wonderful to see what Israel would do if a carrier group escorted a flotilla of aid vessals into Gaza. Let them try their murdering boarding action then.

Hamas is the legally elected government of the Gaza concentration camp and the Israelis know it they just dont like it. So they wanna play the battered victim pity card and say oh look at how they are all picking on me while attacking, harrassing and generally being an aggressive prick to everyone around them.

No murder has happened. If you say it a million times it still won't make it true. As for the part in bold...right there is the problem with Gaza. You may be bffs with terrorists but Israel doesn't have the luxury. Gaza's problems are their own making when they elected a terrorist organization. This organization's goal is to wipe Israel off the map. But, from how you talk, it sounds like you wouldn't mind if all the Jews were killed. It makes me wonder...how long have you had these racist thoughts?

Originally Posted by Renton

1. Certainly, some people on the boat were armed with weapons...but how do you/we know that the 9 dead and 50 or so others shot and wounded were those who were armed and attacking the IDF?...seen any pictures from the Israeli's of the shootings?...we wont till there is an open enquiry...those who attacked the IDF may have simply merged back into the crowd, removed their masks and be now safe at home, planning their next mercy mission.

This very well might have happened. That's what happens when you tie yourself with terrorists. The US gets a lot of flack, too, for civilians that die in attacks. These cowards will attack and use civilians are shields. I hope the humanitarian missions of the future will have learned their lesson and will vet the people who ride on the boats better now.

2. Certainly, there is no evidence proving, even suggesting murder, but how do you/we know that the soldiers didn't just loose it and shoot anyone without an IDF uniform on within range? How do you/we know that the Israeli's didn't just line up capture attackers and shoot them in the head after they had been subdued?...seen any pictures of the shootings?...we won't till there is an open enquiry.

I wouldn't say they lost it. I'd say they were mobbed under and anything that was moving in the immediate vicinity was met with lethal force. As for lining up subdued individuals...yeah, that didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Voland

Turkish forensics claim that all except one of nine dead turkish activist were shot multiple times, and some in the BACK. How do you shoot somebody in the back in "self-defence" ( of course under the premise that these reports turn out to be true) ?


Report: Autopsy shows Gaza activists were shot 30 times - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

They were probably afraid of being farted to death.

Originally Posted by Voland

More details emerge about the autopsy carried out by turkish forensics. Not only were several of the dead shot in the back, also in the back of the head, many shots were apparently fired from less than 45 cm away. And six of the passengers of the Mavi Marmara are missing.......


.France24 - Turkish activists' bodies riddled with bullets, says autopsy report

Of course some were shot in the back. I would have done the very same thing. If I land on the deck and I see my buddy being bludgeoned to death I'm gonna shoot everyone whose beating him. Video evidence shows some soldiers were completely circled around and the "peace activists" beating them. It would be impossible to shoot them all in the chest. I wouldn't care to bother anymore than putting down a rabid animal.

Just wondering:
The Israeli in the vid who was battered with "iron bars and clubs" ( I didn´t see a hit person, just some sort of sticks hitting at something on the ground ) , those who were wounded with knifes and the like, has anybody here seen any pictures of them released ?

I mean, that would be THE argument for the IDF.
Showing: here folks, that´s what happened to our kids and that´s the reason we had to use arms.

I´d be thankful for any link in this matter.

Originally Posted by stillalive

Just wondering:
The Israeli in the vid who was battered with "iron bars and clubs" ( I didn´t see a hit person, just some sort of sticks hitting at something on the ground ) , those who were wounded with knifes and the like, has anybody here seen any pictures of them released ?

I mean, that would be THE argument for the IDF.
Showing: here folks, that´s what happened to our kids and that´s the reason we had to use arms.

I´d be thankful for any link in this matter.

I'm not sure how much you'll find, in this regard. Israel has circled the wagons. As far as the beatings, there are multiple videos showing soldiers getting beat and one being thrown overboard. If the documented video fact, that you've already seen, won't convince you then you will never be convinced and Israel is already guilty in your book.

Originally Posted by stillalive

They were probably afraid of being farted to death.

That is no joke...ask my wife about it.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

I'm not sure how much you'll find, in this regard. Israel has circled the wagons. As far as the beatings, there are multiple videos showing soldiers getting beat and one being thrown overboard. If the documented video fact, that you've already seen, won't convince you then you will never be convinced and Israel is already guilty in your book.

Nope no such vids.

All one can see is bars going down on someone or something hidden behind a plank.

No vids of "encircled" IDF personnel either.

And no IDF soldier was thrown over board, one landed on the deck below.

Though tje Turks claim, there are still persons missing,so if someone WAS thrown overboard, it must have been the missing passengers of the ship.

The first time I looked through tje vids I made the same mistake you obviously make, I let myself be fooled by emotions.

I´ve checked all the material now and I have not found a single instance where a IDF soldier was actually hit.

I did see some objects swinging around, but definitely not a single one striking an IDF soldier.

Now all Israel presented was an interview on TV, showing one guy (the one who claims to have used only a paint gun) with a small band aid on his temple and a minor bruise on his right cheek.

I am almost sure, that had there really been major injuries, Israel would not have hesitated for a second to publish them.

Iron bar brake bones. So, where are the wounded IDF guys ?

Originally Posted by stillalive

Just wondering:
The Israeli in the vid who was battered with "iron bars and clubs" ( I didn´t see a hit person, just some sort of sticks hitting at something on the ground ) ,

oh for god sakes.

those who were wounded with knifes and the like, has anybody here seen any pictures of them released ?

good question.

I mean, that would be THE argument for the IDF.
Showing: here folks, that´s what happened to our kids and that´s the reason we had to use arms.

I´d be thankful for any link in this matter.

I am sorry but taking your posts in whole in this thread, if they showed you pics of the Idf with deep bruises etc. I don't except anything but; "well thats just bruises" etc....it would not make any difference.

Originally Posted by stillalive

Nope no such vids.

All one can see is bars going down on someone or something hidden behind a plank.

No vids of "encircled" IDF personnel either.

And no IDF soldier was thrown over board, one landed on the deck below.

Though tje Turks claim, there are still persons missing,so if someone WAS thrown overboard, it must have been the missing passengers of the ship.

The first time I looked through tje vids I made the same mistake you obviously make, I let myself be fooled by emotions.

I´ve checked all the material now and I have not found a single instance where a IDF soldier was actually hit.

I did see some objects swinging around, but definitely not a single one striking an IDF soldier.

Now all Israel presented was an interview on TV, showing one guy (the one who claims to have used only a paint gun) with a small band aid on his temple and a minor bruise on his right cheek.

I am almost sure, that had there really been major injuries, Israel would not have hesitated for a second to publish them.

Iron bar brake bones. So, where are the wounded IDF guys ?

and there ya go, I didn't have to wait long.