Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Here is a good video of these morons. They got what they deserved.

YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

u wouldd never accept empathy either, would you ?

Originally Posted by Aarstad

That was a quick google searcxh.

Israel must end Gaza blockade, evictions, alleged abuse of young Palestinians – Ban



Bonus: COHRE - Centre On Housing Rights and Evictions



I'll stick with "occupation", thanks.
Adding fascist.

Yep...shit like that happens when you, as a group entire, attack in a terrorist manner. I don't know about you but if I was constantly subjected to rockets landing in my back yard, coupled with suicide bombing on market places, you'd be lucky to even have a house to get kicked out of. All of that on top of multiple wars in which the sole intent was to kill every last one of you you really have no point. Sorry, come back later with reality. It's real easy for you to judge sitting all comfortable on your couch.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

u wouldd never accept empathy either, would you ?

Empathy for whom? People beating other people with pipes getting shot? No. They were given an alternate route in which to deliver this aid and they decided that they wanted to fight instead. They lost due to stupidity.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Yep...shit like that happens when you, as a group entire, attack in a terrorist manner. I don't know about you but if I was constantly subjected to rockets landing in my back yard, coupled with suicide bombing on market places, you'd be lucky to even have a house to get kicked out of. All of that on top of multiple wars in which the sole intent was to kill every last one of you you really have no point. Sorry, come back later with reality. It's real easy for you to judge sitting all comfortable on your couch.

Yeah, I love how you're accusing me of not getting "reality".

Hamas does have the influence to stop the rocket attacks. The ceasefire of 2008 is a good example. I believe the deal was lifting the food blockade, and in return cease rocket/mortar attacks. Israel never stood up to their end of that bargain, as far as I know. No rockets were fired from the Palestinian side for a good long while, until everything went to shit starting with six Palestinian casualties. Cue operation cast lead. It doesn't even pay off to play nice.

What are the Israelis doing, exactly, expanding and not actively evicting people and destroying housing and infrastructure outside 1967 borders?

Way past bedtime, will be back tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Imperator

you're right that is ambiguous, but apparently, there is no doubt that, Israel has had an ongoing blockade, and it doesn't appear as if they have been selective.

the violence has to be taken as a separate issue inho.

The ambiguity ala neutral ships may not be destroyed, sure, but in the act of intercepting them if violence is perpetrated by the ship members..what then?

The only way of determining neutrality aside from a neutral flag and ones word is to inspect the ships/cargo.

there is a in situ blockade, we all know this. Far better if they had asked Israel to come to their departing port and inspect the ships/cargo before leaving, that would have put Israel in a spot. They could have volunteered to deliver the supplies themselves etc...and on and on.

Agreed. Whether the interception occurred in international waters or a few miles of the Gaza coast, what transpired probably wouldn't have been much different. If the intention was to solely get these supplies to the Gazan people, I suspect that there were better avenues. Rather, these activists certainly sought to make headlines and a symbolic statement alongside the deliverance of aid. One can say what they want about the importance of the media limelight in contributing to a cause, but IMO this whole fiasco is unfortunate especially for the Gazans.

Originally Posted by Luap

Agreed. Whether the interception occurred in international waters or a few miles of the Gaza coast, what transpired probably wouldn't have been much different. If the intention was to solely get these supplies to the Gazan people, I suspect that there were better avenues. Rather, these activists certainly sought to make headlines and a symbolic statement alongside the deliverance of aid. One can say what they want about the importance of the media limelight in contributing to a cause, but IMO this whole fiasco is unfortunate especially for the Gazans.

And it is a PR coup for Hamas on a silver plate, that would not have been worse for Israel if they simply had waived the ships through after a search for weapons.........

Originally Posted by Voland

And it is a PR coup for Hamas on a silver plate, that would not have been worse for Israel if they simply had waived the ships through after a search for weapons.........

At what point would you have "simply waived the ships through, after a search for weapons"? Before or after you or your buddies were beat to death? Did you even watch the videos?

Originally Posted by Voland

And it is a PR coup for Hamas on a silver plate, that would not have been worse for Israel if they simply had waived the ships through after a search for weapons.........

I agree Israel screwed up in the PR department, but I have a feeling any future 'flotillas' will not be so bold. The problem is that these ships were not going to allow an inspection - it was either seize the ships or let them through, it seems. Neither of which were good options for Israel, but that was the design. The last sentence of the NYT article:

Earlier Sunday, Ms. Arraf [a leader of the Free Gaza Movement] said the boats would keep trying to move forward “until they either disable our boats or jump on board.”

Deadly Israeli Raid on Aid Flotilla Draws Condemnation - NYTimes.com

Originally Posted by Aarstad

Yeah, I love how you're accusing me of not getting "reality".

Hamas does have the influence to stop the rocket attacks. The ceasefire of 2008 is a good example. I believe the deal was lifting the food blockade, and in return cease rocket/mortar attacks. Israel never stood up to their end of that bargain, as far as I know. No rockets were fired from the Palestinian side for a good long while, until everything went to shit starting with six Palestinian casualties. Cue operation cast lead. It doesn't even pay off to play nice.

What are the Israelis doing, exactly, expanding and not actively evicting people and destroying housing and infrastructure outside 1967 borders?

Way past bedtime, will be back tomorrow.

Hmmm...everytime I remember a cease fire being violated was done by the hands of Isaerl's neighbors.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

At what point would you have "simply waived the ships through, after a search for weapons"? Before or after you or your buddies were beat to death? Did you even watch the videos?

The Israelis were storming ships in international waters with heavily armed soldiers (not exactly a way to expect a welcome) and even if they were greeted with "sticks and kifes" ( Haaretz) that is hardly an excuse to open live fire. The principle is called proportionality and at least in most civilized countries elite soldiers know other means to disperse angry crowds than to kill them.
Without getting into the discussion about the Gaza blocade and if the Israelis have learned anything from the good old days when Jews were breaking a british naval blocade of Palestine and the British seized the ships but screwed up at the PR front.

Originally Posted by Luap

I agree Israel screwed up in the PR department, but I have a feeling any future 'flotillas' will not be so bold. The problem is that these ships were not going to allow an inspection - it was either seize the ships or let them through, it seems. Neither of which were good options for Israel, but that was the design. The last sentence of the NYT article:

Earlier Sunday, Ms. Arraf [a leader of the Free Gaza Movement] said the boats would keep trying to move forward “until they either disable our boats or jump on board.”

Deadly Israeli Raid on Aid Flotilla Draws Condemnation - NYTimes.com

In the late eighties the PLO was organising a shipment to Gaza, and Israel solved the case pretty simply : They sent agents to Cyprus that damaged the ships. No working ships, no convoy. But also no bloodshed.
A couple of years ago a similar convoy was heading to the coast of Gaza. Israel negotiated, the ships were inspected, and waived through. They landed in Gaza, delivered their cargo and they sky over Tel Aviv did not come falling down.
This time though the israeli behaviour points to the suspicion though that the activists were not the only ones looking for a confrontation.

Originally Posted by Voland

The Israelis were storming ships in international waters with heavily armed soldiers (not exactly a way to expect a welcome)

Yes, they boarded the ship that was trying to run a blockade. What problem do you see with that? They were warned before hand and they decided to make the attempt anyway. You try and paint it as if Israel is indiscriminately assaulting random ships. This was not the case and don't try and blow smoke on that fact. International waters is not a license to do whatever the hell you want.

and even if they were greeted with "sticks and kifes" ( Haaretz) that is hardly an excuse to open live fire. The principle is called proportionality and at least in most civilized countries elite soldiers know other means to disperse angry crowds than to kill them.

I'll go ahead and assume that you didn't bother to watch the video I posted. You do realize that metal poles and knives are deadly weapons, correct? If I assault someone with a knife I will be charge with "assault with a deadly weapon". The soldiers were outnumbered and were literally swarmed under and being beat. Being outnumbered by that much they didn't even have to have metal poles or knives, you can kill barehanded. Mobs have been known to tear people apart with their bear hands.

Without getting into the discussion about the Gaza blocade and if the Israelis have learned anything from the good old days when Jews were breaking a british naval blocade of Palestine and the British seized the ships but screwed up at the PR front.

Gaza is being legitimately locked down. You can only take so many rocket and suicide attacks from a people who elected a group who's charter calls for the complete destruction of Israel. They were stupid to elect Hamas and these people were stupid to try and run the blockade.