Thread: Belgian elections

^^ The Toubon law seems to forbid non French terms also in commercial advertisements if there is no French translatioi added directly next to it. Thats pretty sick in my opinion. The German wiki page even claims that originally the law should have aimed even into the private sphere as well but that a court ruling prevented that as this obviously was in violation to freedom of speech.

Originally Posted by Sucre

The Toubon law does not forbid languages :rolleyes:.

It forbids the use of foreign words in official documents.

And more, commercials, advertisements, language at stateschools,.... all in french.

Imperialism on what? On French?

I don't think a Corsican considders him as a frenchman.

And here what I call "insults".



(French speaking Rats, go Home!)

This one is a yellow star, specially designed for French speakers in Flander.
(I am sure you are going to tell me that I have no sense of humour.)

Originally Posted by Sucre

Can you be more specific about what you mean by equal rights?
Don't you have them all now ? What do you want more ?

BHV, art.35 of the constitution, the ending of faccilities, no longer parity-representation, equal votes for one seat,............

Of course, Dutch is the most spoken language in Belgium since the Flemmish represent 60% of the population. They hold all key positions in the government, have appointed the prime ministers since 1974 and get 50% of the seats in government in Brussels although they only represent a very tiny minority there. My humble personal impression is that they have lots of rights. So, now, tell me: what specifically are you complaining about?

The Flemish don't have 50% of the seats in Brussel.

French is a local language in Belgium, but it is also used as international language by many people at the EU ant at the UN and in - except by the Flemmish nationalists who are blind to the world around them.

Most flemings speak 2 or more languages.

But if I were living in Belgium, I would try to learn Flemmish of course, just in order at least to be able to read the local papers.

Tell that to the frenchspeaking people here in Flanders.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

And more, commercials, advertisements, language at stateschools,.... all in french.

So what? Why are you bothered about it ? What's your point ? The French can do in France whatever they want with their language. The loi Toubon has no influence ... on Dutch.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

I don't think a Corsican considders him as a frenchman.

They say they like the English better, it's true.

Originally Posted by Sucre

And here what I call "insults".



(French speaking Rats, go Home!)

This one is a yellow star, specially designed for French speakers in Flander.
(I am sure you are going to tell me that I have no sense of humour.)

Propaganda against Flemish-nationalism. This is not coming from the Flemish movement.

Easy to see. The choice of words are not correct.


2 examples;

The word french we don't use.

Frankophone is with a C instead of a K and what a fraskofone is, I reazlly don't know. The word we use is Franskiljon or in official letters in french, francophone.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

Normal, Dutch is the official language in Flanders.

It's the same thing if some frenchspeaking people moving to Germany demands the right that french would be an official language in Germany.

OK, in which case, I'd rather live in imperialistc France.

In which language are foreign cities written on signs in Flandern? Like on highways, are the Dutch names used or the original names in the language spoken there? Autobahn signs in Vienna look like that:

Originally Posted by Sucre

OK, in which case, I'd rather live in imperialistc France.

Can I in france go to the local authority and demand that everything must be in dutch?

I don't think so.

Can I in Bordeaux vote for the local elections for a parisian candidate in Paris?

I don't think so.

That's the problem with the frenchspeaking people in Flanders. The only thing we ask is respect for our law and language.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

In which language are foreign cities written on signs in Flandern? Like on highways, are the Dutch names used or the original names in the language spoken there? Autobahn signs in Vienna look like that:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

^^ The Toubon law seems to forbid non French terms also in commercial advertisements if there is no French translatioi added directly next to it. Thats pretty sick in my opinion. The German wiki page even claims that originally the law should have aimed even into the private sphere as well but that a court ruling prevented that as this obviously was in violation to freedom of speech.

I don't know if it' "sick" and what "sick" means under the circumstances.

You may argue whether the law makes sense or not - but nobody is hurt by it. I remember quite well when the law was passed - in the mid 90s - and the debate around it. I was not a supporter of the law back then, but now, 15 years later, I must admit that ... it is not very important. A double spelling has taken root - for example, you can write "mail" or "mèle" (brr ...) or use the word "courriel" and most French people I know will write cédérom and not CD-Rom.

Thinking about it it's not worse than the reformation of German spelling with the word "mayonnaise" being now spellt "Majonäse".

As far as I am concerned, it's an intellectual debate around languages and their evolution. But it affects nobody in the key elements of their life and does not split communities like the language issue in Belgium.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Thinking about it it's not worse than the reformation of German spelling with the word "mayonnaise" being now spellt "Majonäse".

Bad example for several reasons.
First of all, mayonnaise is still a correct form of the word in German. I looked it up on some Rechtschreib forum and there they even went so far as to say that the Duden still recommends that form.

The version "Majonäse" exists as well and is correct as well. It was in use and existed already before the Rechtschreibreform.

But there may be examples where something similar to what you described happened. Actually I am the last one who would say that its wrong to write cédérom in French. What I am very much against is that the Toubon law outlaws commercial usage which is defined as wrong. If it is right that the government even tried to do so for private conversations that is nearly unbelievable.

As far as I am concerned, it's an intellectual debate around languages and their evolution. But it affects nobody in the key elements of their life and does not split communities like the language issue in Belgium.

No its a debate about freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Breaking the law because of speaking bad French is hardly compatible as a concept with that freedom.

If the French don't want to use Anglicisms, than they don't have to. But its simply not ok to tell them that it is now law to use that form or that. With limiting the law to commercial activities its on the borderline, if it had been realized as initially intended to address also private usage it would be a big scandal in my eyes. At least I would feel that way if something similar were to happen in Austria with Austrian German.

Yes I am quite fond of Austrian German and I hate to hear "Meerrettich" for example. Thats "Kren" here for god's sake. But its the decision of the people what to use not the job of the government to tell me (or companies) what is by law forbidden or not . Do you see the difference? Something can be right according to German language rules or not, for foreign words often no rules exist and the language is quite flexible to adopt them and also transform them so that they fit better into German. But even if something is wrong its not forbidden. Actually if popular resistance to certain rules is big enough, chances are not bad that the rules change rather than the real language.

Ich surfe
du surfst
er surft
wir surfen
ihr surft
sie surfen
... im Internet.

surfen (present)
surfte (past) (and my favorite: du surftest, ihr surftet)
gesurft (present perfect)



While this may be even the official spelling nowadays it certainly did not start out that way.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

No its a debate about freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Breaking the law because of speaking bad French is hardly compatible as a concept with that freedom.

Well, no. This is precisely what I am saying.

As you correctly read in Wikipedia, the part of the law affecting freedom of speech and private business was deemed anti-constitutional and removed. Therefore, as I wrote, you can write "mél", "courriel", "message" or "mail" (for "mail" in English) as you wish - as you can write "maillonaise" or "majonäse".

The same.