Thread: Belgian elections

Originally Posted by Sucre

Explain me why. There are more languages and ethnicities represented in France than in Belgium, you know.

The difference here Sucre, IMO, is you have a very large part of the Flemish population that doesn't want to share a country with the Walloons. By all accounts that part is getting larger and larger. If they want to govern themselves then that is their choice. Whether or not you and I agree with that is very much irrelevant. They, as a people, have that right.

I would say the same thing if the Bretons or Germans in France felt the same way about being French citizens in similar numbers.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The difference here Sucre, IMO, is you have a very large part of the Flemish population that doesn't want to share a country with the Walloons. By all accounts that part is getting larger and larger. If they want to govern themselves then that is their choice. Whether or not you and I agree with that is very much irrelevant. They, as a people, have that right.

I would say the same thing if the Bretons or Germans in France felt the same way about being French citizens in similar numbers.

OK, then this is exactly what I mean. They can't live in the same country because they think their language makes them different (if not superior in the case at hand). Of course, it's their choice. But it is not a choice which denotes tolerance, mind openess, generosity ...

And I call this BS. Language Is a difference, but it does not make you different as a person. Language does not even constitute a major cultural difference BTW.

Originally Posted by Sucre

(Yawn) I actually had learnt with time on uspol never to make an analogy with the Nazis in a discussion. The analogy is always interpreted this way :
She is using the Nazis as an example = She is saying I am a Nazi !

Than explain how I should interpret it. There simply is no base of comparison...

Originally Posted by Sucre

In any case, racist or not racist, the understatement of the NVA is clear : "We" are better than "They" - "We" manage better, we do things better. And the differenciation is based on language usage.

Wrong. The understatement is that Belgium should be built on the principle of subsidiarity and efficiency, just like the EU is.

The provinces have no value => tear them down
the senate has no value => tear it down
Belgium has no value => tear it down

Which are the competences which know great advantages of scale? Defence/coining. Those competences should go to the EU.

Which are the competences where the heterogeneity costs are too large? Those competences should go to the regions.

The NVA thinks that the regions and the EU are better placed to do certain tasks than Belgium. That's not because of misplaced arrogance. It's frigging law & economics!

NVA is a pro-European party. Could you explain how 'we do things better in Flanders' is compatible with that?

Originally Posted by Sucre

So, it's nice to get along in a fun café with several nationalities in all colours, have fun, but it is sad that for more serious business, you are not able to get along with your neighbour at home.

That's the point! It's not difficult to get along with your neighbour, if you really are neighbours. It IS difficult to get along when neighbours are forced to live in the same house.

Let's put France and Germany in one country and call it Krautfrog. They MUST get along on the competences of defence, social security, labor, justice, public debt etc... See if that works out:rolleyes:.

I guess you won't have a difficulty to recognize that's insane. So why it's so hard to understand that Belgium doesn't work? It didn't work yesterday, it doesn't today and it won't tomorrow.

The only option is turning Belgium upside down. Don't say "you have to work together" with the result that the country is blocked everytime the communities don't agree, but say "we each go our way and we'll work together on a voluntary base on the competences where we DO agree", with the result that differences in opinion won't block the whole of the country.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The difference here Sucre, IMO, is you have a very large part of the Flemish population that doesn't want to share a country with the Walloons. By all accounts that part is getting larger and larger. If they want to govern themselves then that is their choice. Whether or not you and I agree with that is very much irrelevant. They, as a people, have that right.

I would say the same thing if the Bretons or Germans in France felt the same way about being French citizens in similar numbers.

1. The Czechs and Slowaks have been sucessfully and peacefully through this in the early nineties. But in their case both sides wanted to end the joint state.

2. People in Alsace and Lorraine may refer to themselves as locals of Alsace and Lorraine ( which means german heritage) but rather not as Germans. It is a couple of generations too late for that and in times of unification and open borders that issue is irrelevant. If you are looking for a french region with secessionist tendencies I recommend Korsica......

Originally Posted by Thanatos

T
Let's put France and Germany in one country and call it Krautfrog

I'd get involved in this thread but I'm too busy packing in order to emigrate.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Explain me why. There are more languages and ethnicities represented in France than in Belgium, you know.

Funny that you're talking about France. France doesn't have the heterogeneity costs problem as the only official language in France is... French.

Even the Bretons didn't have their minority language recognized...

How tolerant is that?

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

I'd get involved in this thread but I'm too busy packing in order to emigrate.

I know you'll kick my ass, but please do get involved.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Than explain how I should interpret it. There simply is no base of comparison...

You need to interpret it the way I wrote it in my post.

You may vote for party X for reason A, but actually you need to take the entire alphabet and not just focus on one letter.

The majority of German voters did not vote for the NSDAP because it was anti-semite (reason Y) but because it promised recovery (reason A).

The NVA is both a liberal (economic) party and an independatist party. If you vote for it because it is liberal, you are also taking the independentist part on board.

If you read French, you should read the accounts reported in LeMonde in this very interresting article:
"Une région au nationalisme exacerbé est en train de naître" - LeMonde.fr

These are just people talking about their feelings you know ...

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

I'd get involved in this thread but I'm too busy packing in order to emigrate.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Funny that you're talking about France. France doesn't have the heterogeneity costs problem as the only official language in France is... French.

Even the Bretons didn't have their minority language recognized...

How tolerant is that?
.

Sorry to disagree.

France is an extreme heterogeneous country between the Parisian elitism and the Corezian no-man-land to take just one example. Did you ever drive through France from Lille to Toulouse. In Lille, people are tall and blond (and a bit fat) as well as unemployed, in Toulouse they are short with dark skin and hair and a very bourgeois town. In Lille, the supermarkets are full of all kinds of beers and they have their moules frites on Sundays, in Toulouse it's just wines and Cassoulet.

Although by now, all minority languages are recognised and taught at school, I am not saying that France is tolerant as far as languages are concerned. So why are not all these supressed language minorities not revolting and creating their own local party to vote in their own language ?

Truely it's no big deal except, as Voland noted, for Corsica. But Corsica is a special case.

What I mean is that if you take heterogeneity as a determinator, then France would be a good example except that it is not splitting up in spite of its heterogeneity.

Originally Posted by Voland

1. The Czechs and Slowaks have been sucessfully and peacefully through this in the early nineties. But in their case both sides wanted to end the joint state.

Right, I was going to bring them up. IMO, the need for both parties to support a break is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Voland

2. People in Alsace and Lorraine may refer to themselves as locals of Alsace and Lorraine ( which means german heritage) but rather not as Germans. It is a couple of generations too late for that and in times of unification and open borders that issue is irrelevant. If you are looking for a french region with secessionist tendencies I recommend Korsica......

Indeed. I was simply using those peoples as generic examples as they were the first that sprung to my mind.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Of course, it's their choice. But it is not a choice which denotes tolerance, mind openess, generosity ...

I just don't see it that way. It is their choice, of course. It is a choice that denotes free will and self-determination. It says nothing about their (both the Flemish and the Walloons) tolerance or open mindedness.

Originally Posted by Sucre

And I call this BS. Language Is a difference, but it does not make you different as a person. Language does not even constitute a major cultural difference BTW.

Right, but in the case of Belgium, it goes beyond language.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

I just don't see it that way. It is their choice, of course. It is a choice that denotes free will and self-determination. It says nothing about their (both the Flemish and the Walloons) tolerance or open mindedness.

Nobody is putting the results of the elections in question. It's a free choice, sure, but so what ? Is a free choice equivalent to a wise choice ?

As for tolerance and open mindedness, chosing a party which is intolerant is a sign of intolerance, no ? Nationalism is per se intolerant as it grounds on the exclusion of others.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Right, but in the case of Belgium, it goes beyond language.

But if there were a minimum of tolerance, these alleged unbridgeable differences would not be a problem, you see.