Thread: Belgian elections

Originally Posted by Sucre

OK, in which case, I'd rather live in imperialistc France.

Too bad not everybody shares that view.

Originally Posted by WoI

You know very well -or at least you should know very well- that back in those days every single government job required you to be a card carrying member of one of the big three political parties of the time (CVP/SP/PVV). It didn't matter which one you payed lip service to as long as you did. That clientelisme and its degenerative influence is very well documented and of little relevance today.

When Bracke became in charge of the news desk though (2007-2009) he was the one that commercialized and infantilized the VRT news thus allowing for completely uncritical and unchallenged acceptance of the absurdities that both the VB -mostly- and the NVA -to a lesser extent- were spewing.

He's the number 2 of your party. Deal with it.

I agree on Bracke. That's unacceptable behaviour.

Originally Posted by WoI

And gee, let that be the exact period since when the intercommunautary dialogue has become a moronic children's game with literally zero results to show for. Heck, even the hard core VU of the 70's managed to make compromises. So Dewever is either much less competent than say Vic Anciaux or he has a totally different goal. Which of the two is it ?

False choice.

You could off course blame Dewever, but listen at mediator Vandelanotte's speech. "There was not enough ready readiness to accept the proposals." As you know, the only parties who did proposals were Flemish.

Vandelanotte: " I didn't feel supported by Di Rupo, who was mentally absent and not even available for the negotiations during the last week."

NVA already gave in by weakening its demands (less is more strategy): they only ask to reform one domain of the state structure: f.e. labor market.

So... Who doesn't want to compromise?

Originally Posted by WoI

Socialism is inclusive. Nationalism is exclusive. You can't be both at the same time. It's pretty clear which of the two Bracke is.

Such thing as inclusive nationalism also exists. And that's exactly what Bracke defended, f.e. in his 11th of july speech or Dewever in this article.

It's a no-brainer actually. I never hear NVA talking about skin or race. Concerning identity, NVA focusses on 'Everyone who lives permanently in Flanders and showing the will to learn Dutch' is Flemish. Speaking Dutch is an ability you can master very easily, if you're black, chinese or Walloon. Inclusive nationalism that is...

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

New-elections is more reasonable.

It shows clearly that the federal construction isn't working anymore.

It shows that the state has been devolved too far to function well.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Well, he is expressing his opinion. He is as much neutral from his point of view as you are from yours. His arguments are all simple, straighttforward and correct. No "emo" nowhere, just passion. That's great!

Passion is an emotion.

Anyway.

Belgian public television presented the video 4 times on one week as he was a regular joe from the street. Not very correct, deontologically.

Second. The demand about the exits of highways is not a Flemish, but Francophone demand.

He's a fraud and the video is propaganda.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Too bad not everybody shares that view.

What are you trying to prove here?

Sorry, I have to ask because this is not very clear...:rolleyes:

To clarify: I posted this picture ...



... as an illustration of the politics of "bilingulism" in France.

There is one single official language in France. However, the official language respects and recognises regional languages.

But what is your picture supposed to prove?

That the "French" (the majority) do not respect the Basques (the minority) ?
Certainly not since, on the picture you posted, the French names have been erased from the signs, not the Basque names!

If your picture is not meant to prove the intolerance of French authorities towards regional languages, why did you post it for?

Did you want to show that there is a Basque nationalist movement in France?

Basque nationalism exists for sure. The news are full of the attentates ... in Spain.

The heart of Basque nationalism is in Spain, hardly in France. Not to say that it is inexistent (your picture proves it is not), but it's a tiny tiny minority, mostly busy with hiding ther colleagues from Spain. You never, but never, hear about them in the news.

Quote Wikipedia: "Basque nationalism is a political movement advocating for either further political autonomy or, chiefly, full independence of the Basque Country in the wider sense. As a whole, support for Basque nationalism is stronger in the Spanish Basque Autonomous Community and northwest Navarre, whereas in the French Basque Country support is low."

Basque nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
Northern Basque Country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In contrast this picture:


and Hellfigger's dry comment: "Normal, Dutch is the official language in Flanders."
Belgian elections

Tell me where do you find more tolerance ?

In monolingual France or in bilingual Belgium (for that matter Flander) ?

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Passion is an emotion.

Anyway.

Belgian public television presented the video 4 times on one week as he was a regular joe from the street. Not very correct, deontologically.

Second. The demand about the exits of highways is not a Flemish, but Francophone demand.

He's a fraud and the video is propaganda.

I noted already that anything you and Hellfinger don't like to hear is propaganda.

PS. Whether the "demand" is Flemish or Francophone is totally irrelevant. You did not understand the video. The point is that such a demand does not justify that there has been no government for seven months.

Originally Posted by WoI

Aux armes, citoyens ! The Flemish will invade France to conquer la Picardie !
LOL, Than, if you're going to claim that region as 'Flemish' will you equally give up Antwerp and Limburg which are historically as much a part of Flanders as Wallonia is ?

It was tongue in cheeck. I'm happy with the territory of the Flemish region (excl Brussels) as it is. The question was if Dutch is influenced by the Toubon law. Yes it is.

Originally Posted by WoI

Speaking of transferts, where was the NVA when a handful of bankers, Flemish, Walloon, Bruxellois but also Dutch and French, got a transfert of scores of billions of euros as a reward for cooking the books for a decade and the megalomania of a single (Flemish !!!!) person ? Is 'solidarity' towards the already extremely rich a lesser problem than solidarity with those that actually might need it ?

NVA? In the opposition.

Imo the bankcrisis was handled awfully by the federal government and It's outrageous that the sector was and is allowed to privatise its profits while 'sharing' its losses with the whole society.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Tell me where do you find more tolerance ?

In monolingual France or in bilingual Belgium (for that matter Flander) ?

Belgium isn't bilingual. We have 3 official languages.

These are the problems you don't understand.

BHV is declared unconstitutional

Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The francophone dream of “Wallobrux”

Political Crisis in Belgium Deepens | The Brussels Journal

^^ Belgium is not bilingual - it should be bilingual to a certain extend. What I have in mind is especially bilingual education where the language which is not the dominant one of the area gets massive coverage demanding a skill level from finished pupils which allow them fluent interaction in both languages. All of the rest would not matter that much actually. The signs could be bilingual if there exist separate names, there is no need to invent new names if they don't exist in one of both languages. I don't see the real big deal about having all the public services operating bilingual at least in the larger urban agglomeration of Brussels (as well as bilingual signs). That way one could finally put an end to these hilariously narrow minded language fights there.


PS:
You quote the Brussels Journal. Thats those guys who are pretty much in line with the political ideas of an FPÖ, aren't they? Really nice guys, with a fresh political world view straight from the stone age. Specialized on Islam=evil stories if they are not busy writing about the evil EU or Belgium.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

Flanders is not a bilingual region. Only Dutch is an official language.

Officially, yes. And that Flemish demand of yesteryear is one of the causes of the problems now because it doesn't correspond to reality. In reality there isn't a clear cut line between the languages. Trying to put a legalistic Berlin wall on a diffuse border is as idiotic as the Isreal/Palestine physical wall.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

There is no historical minority in Flanders, the frenchspeaking people are coming from Brussels or Wallonia the last 50 years. Why should we give them exclusive rights? The only thing we ask except the political structure is that they speak dutch with the local authority.

Gee, I got an idea. People speak whichever language they want anywhere they want and their representatives adapt to the people instead of the other way around.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Are we back to the dark times ?

Short answer : Yes.

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

New-elections is more reasonable.

LOL. Same parties, same results, same people, Then what ?

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

It shows clearly that the federal construction isn't working anymore.

Nice self-fulfilling prophecy.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

So... Who doesn't want to compromise?

The NVA. What you're referring to is but the latest end game. I have no problem with the PS saying "Trop is teveel".

Originally Posted by Hellfigger

Such thing as inclusive nationalism also exists. And that's exactly what Bracke defended, f.e. in his 11th of july speech or Dewever in this article.

It's a no-brainer actually. I never hear NVA talking about skin or race. Concerning identity, NVA focusses on 'Everyone who lives permanently in Flanders and showing the will to learn Dutch' is Flemish. Speaking Dutch is an ability you can master very easily, if you're black, chinese or Walloon. Inclusive nationalism that is...

Inclusiveness has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. I know NVA <> VB, we've established that ages ago in this thread. It's about what to do with the cake when the cake gets smaller. Left -inclusive- solution : everybody gets a smaller piece. Right -exclusive- solution : Those with the smallest piece get thrown out of the cake room altogether.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

NVA? In the opposition.

Yes, in the opposition. If there was as much as a peep of critique, I must have missed it.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Imo the bankcrisis was handled awfully by the federal government and It's outrageous that the sector was and is allowed to privatise its profits while 'sharing' its losses with the whole society.

You should vote PvdA then

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

PS:
You quote the Brussels Journal. Thats those guys who are pretty much in line with the political ideas of an FPÖ, aren't they? Really nice guys, with a fresh political world view straight from the stone age. Specialized on Islam=evil stories if they are not busy writing about the evil EU or Belgium.

Brussels Journal = Paul Beliën and his spouse Alexandra Colen = Vlaams Belang = Vlaams Blok.

Ah, I had no idea but suddenly it all makes a lot of sense

Originally Posted by WoI

Officially, yes. And that Flemish demand of yesteryear is one of the causes of the problems now because it doesn't correspond to reality. In reality there isn't a clear cut line between the languages.

I would guess however that Flemish nationalists are working hard on creating such a border, no matter what legal or almost legal means it takes to reach it.