Thread: Belgian elections

May I interject that the reality of the alleged transfers from Flanders to Wallonia is dubious at best. Sure, by considering an ideologically motivated subset of all financial streams in a country it's perfectly possible to come up with numbers that indicate such. Those are the numbers one finds all over nationalistic propaganda websites.

But actual scholarly studies of the matter tend to be very cautious about this. The complexity of the Belgian state leads thereto that one has to repartition certain financial assets which are not uniquely attributable to any of the communities at the hand of arbitrary parameters. It's pretty easy to tweak these parameters in your favour to make the end result correspond with the desired political outcome. But there is no rational ground for putting the parameters at these values.

The reality of the matter is that Belgium, despite the linguistic divide, is pretty much a centralized country with the influence of Brussels stretching well into both Flanders and Wallonia. It's not at all comparable with e.g. Czechia and Slovakia which each have their own centers around which a divided set of 'countries' can be built up. Brussels' position in Belgium is much more comparable with e.g. Paris in France.

I challenge any nationalist to come up with a rational and realistic plan for dividing such a country. It's pretty easy to make this claim in an election campaign with a media that never asks any awkward questions but none of these nationalist and populist parties has ever presented a plan that it is not purely ideological but pragmatic.

It's no accident that De Wever's tone changed instantly after his victory. The man fully realizes that any negotations over a divide of Belgium would be a thousand times more difficult than the trivial matter of BHV which already leads to an impasse. There is no plan.

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

I challenge any nationalist to come up with a rational and realistic plan for dividing such a country. It's pretty easy to make this claim in an election campaign with a media that never asks any awkward questions but none of these nationalist and populist parties has ever presented a plan that it is not purely ideological but pragmatic.

Well, yes : but that is the fate of any nationalistic or ideologic party, no ?

Another interresting question is whether Flander would benefit at all, economically speaking, from a split of the burden. Just the turnover from one system to the other would cost a hell of a lot of money. Once the turnover carried out, besides making some people richer and other poorer - and this is only a benefit for part of the population - , what are the benefits from a macroeconomic point of view ?

Originally Posted by Sucre

Well, yes : but that is the fate of any nationalistic or ideologic party, no ?

Another interresting question is whether Flander would benefit at all, economically speaking, from a split of the burden. Just the turnover from one system to the other would cost a hell of a lot of money. Once the turnover carried out, besides making some people richer and other poorer - and this is only a benefit for part of the population - , what are the benefits from a macroeconomic point of view ?

That's impossible to answer precisely because of the absence of a specific and detailed plan. The (high) national public debt would have to be split up somehow -just to mention one thing- and a difference of a single percent in the repartition would make a huge difference.
Nationalism is purely sentimental and emotional. The speeches of the elections congress of the NVA contain nothing of substance. (They're here but of course they're uniquely in Dutch. What would you expect LOL
Economics aside, if there truly came a nationalistic putsch about in Flanders, it certainly would lose intellectually and culturally. There would be a non-trivial brain drain in both these aspects. After all, we would be talking about a country that would be about 200x70km in size (). Emigration wouldn't exactly be a huge undertaking and that's what many intellectual and artistic people already have in mind.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Why do consider the lack of solidarity in Belgium as "normal", "acceptable" but not in Germany where the gap in income and devlopment is deeper ?

*0.5% bbp Belgium goes to development aid

*6% of the Flemish regional product goes to the other regions

*Belgium as a whole is a large net contributer to the EU. And as the largest sum of the contributions is brought up by the Flemish (a Flemish person contributes twice as much as a Walloon), the Flemish are the largest net contributor per capita in the EU, with a larger contribution than even the Dutch or German (per capita).
And please do note that EU scepticism is quasi unexistant in Belgium.

So how do you come to the conclusion that we're experiencing a lack of solidarity in Belgium?

Originally Posted by Sucre

I agree with Stillalive here : open businesses in Wallonia to give jobs After all, the Flemmish have a superiority over the Wallonians that they usually speak their language better. Instead of pointing to the deficiencies of the alleged adversed community, try to work together.

You say that like Flemish companies are ignoring Wallonia in the present? Which off course is not true. A lot of Flemish companies are moving to Wallonia. More space, more subsidies, less traffic jams etc...

Flanders and Wallonia are and always have been eachothers most important trade partner...

And no, I don't think the Flemish are superior in any way opposed to the Walloons. Each community just has different ways of solving things, because of different ways, means and goals. That's the problem with the 'work together approach'. It's not efficient.

New stuff here and the possibility that Belgian DOES split.
The Wallons seem so fed up of arrogant Flemish nationalism that, yes, they are ready to split but they want to keep Brussels (in Flemmish territory but speaking French ...)

Le plan B, au cas où... - lesoir.be

I don't understand why the Flemish seem to be getting demonized so much.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

I don't understand why the Flemish seem to be getting demonized so much.

Because they are arrogant and nationalist .

Originally Posted by Sucre

Because they are arrogant and nationalist .

And, therefore, you write simply their grievances/issue off? Yes, that will certainly get them in the mood to work it out.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

And, therefore, you write simply their grievances/issue off? Yes, that will certainly get them in the mood to work it out.

You're asking a question, I am giving an answer. They ARE nationalist and they APPEAR as arrogant. Whether their arrogance is a fact is difficult to determine: it's certainly highly subjective. But for sure, you will understand that some Wallons see it this way? Would you like to be labelled as lazy, under productive etc. ??? Would you say,oh, yes, that's fine, that's just the way I am ?

As far as I am concerned, I have little sympathy for nationalism. So, no, I have no sympathy for Flemmish nationalim.

Edit: I don't write their grievances off, I simply do not take them seriously. What will they do when, once they have their own minuscule Flemmish State, they have lost their scapegoat as well ?

Originally Posted by Sucre

New stuff here and the possibility that Belgian DOES split.
The Wallons seem so fed up of arrogant Flemish nationalism that, yes, they are ready to split but they want to keep Brussels (in Flemmish territory but speaking French ...)

Le plan B, au cas où... - lesoir.be

Not really new stuff. Just a bit of inversion from some Walloons who are using the Flemish nationalistic threat of division against them now.
The fact that they can afford to do that indicates that the Flemish nationalistic media hype is already cooling down and that the population in general are fed up with the shenanigans of the nationalists now that they have proven to be as inadequate in solving anything as the more mainstream parties were.
Three months after the elections the impasse is as big as ever if not bigger.

Me likes.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Edit: I don't write their grievances off, I simply do not take them seriously. What will they do when, once they have their own minuscule Flemmish State, they have lost their scapegoat as well ?

In that hypothetical case they would find a new scapegoat, immigrants and/or Muslims being the obvious choice. Or maybe the Roma although the Roma in Belgium are inconveniently not stashed in 'concentration' camps as they were by Sarkozy's policies in France.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Because they are arrogant and nationalist .

You're just plain ignorant. Maybe you should also try reading some Flemish newspapers instead of only Francophone and you would understand why we want a state reform. You're only getting half of the story.

Oh, you don't speak Dutch... I see the problem.

What's in the link of Le Soir that you gave us? This: "La position éditoriale du Soir est quant à elle limpide : notre journal est pour le maintien de la Belgique en tant que pays, même très fondamentalement redessiné : cet Etat-là a des atouts uniques, et le scinder serait un échec du vivre ensemble, au cœur du projet européen.

Maybe you should buy an objective newspaper instead of that crap?

Le Soir last year asked that all members and voters of the Flemish Alliance should be put on a boat and sunk in the North Sea... Talking about arrogance?

Originally Posted by Sucre

New stuff here and the possibility that Belgian DOES split."

The Wallons seem so fed up of arrogant Flemish nationalism that, yes, they are ready to split but they want to keep Brussels (in Flemmish territory but speaking French ...)

Le plan B, au cas où... - lesoir.be

That's not new stuff dude... The Walloons are aiming for a Wallo-Brux federation since the eighties, after they realized it would be inpossible to francisize the whole of Flanders due to a growing feeling of Flemish identity. Hence the Francophones claims on a corridor from Wallonia to Brussels and even a claim from Wallonia to the North Sea (through Flanders):rolleyes:.

Yea, the Flemish sure are arrogant and fascist although we are not the ones who want to annex other peoples territory...

Originally Posted by Sucre

You're asking a question, I am giving an answer. They ARE nationalist and they APPEAR as arrogant. Whether their arrogance is a fact is difficult to determine: it's certainly highly subjective. But for sure, you will understand that some Wallons see it this way? Would you like to be labelled as lazy, under productive etc. ??? Would you say,oh, yes, that's fine, that's just the way I am ?

As far as I am concerned, I have little sympathy for nationalism. So, no, I have no sympathy for Flemmish nationalim.

Edit: I don't write their grievances off, I simply do not take them seriously. What will they do when, once they have their own minuscule Flemmish State, they have lost their scapegoat as well ?

Yes, It's absolutely not done to talk of the Walloons as onproductive and lazy (who says they are lazy anyway?:rolleyes: ) but talking of the Flemish as arrogant and fascist is ok.

Double standard?

Originally Posted by Sucre

Edit: I don't write their grievances off, I simply do not take them seriously. What will they do when, once they have their own minuscule Flemmish State, they have lost their scapegoat as well ?

You simply don't get it do you. Walloons playing the victims but all they want is Flemish money. And all the Flemish want is more self governance and responsability for their own.

It's called freedom.

Originally Posted by Sucre

Because they are arrogant and nationalist .

If the Flemish really were that nationalist, there would have a been a Flemish state since long time. But there isn't. Flemish and Walloon parties are still talking. So maybe you're exaggerating just a little bit.

A new poll last week showed that still only a quarter of the Flemish population wants an independant Flanders and 60% of the population opposes independance.

However two thirds of the Flemish population does want a state reform which gives more autonomy to the regions.

Again... Don't exaggerate nationalism in Flanders. It's not about ethnicity. It's about money.

Originally Posted by WoI

Not really new stuff. Just a bit of inversion from some Walloons who are using the Flemish nationalistic threat of division against them now.
The fact that they can afford to do that indicates that the Flemish nationalistic media hype is already cooling down and that the population in general are fed up with the shenanigans of the nationalists now that they have proven to be as inadequate in solving anything as the more mainstream parties were.
Three months after the elections the impasse is as big as ever if not bigger.

Me likes.

What Flemish Nationalistic 'Hype'? The Flemish Movement hasn't cooled down since the fifties and it is still gaining momentum...

That's why the New Flemish Alliance, which became the biggest party in last elections with 28% of the votes in Flanders has grown even bigger to 32.3% of the votes in Flanders...

http://www.gva.be/nieuws/binnenland/...oppositie.aspx

So keep dreaming. The Francophones talking off declaring independance is simply tactics and rethorics. They know THEY would lose when that happens.

Originally Posted by WoI

That's impossible to answer precisely because of the absence of a specific and detailed plan. The (high) national public debt would have to be split up somehow -just to mention one thing- and a difference of a single percent in the repartition would make a huge difference.

If you would split up the debt according to GDP (which would be the most bad deal for Flanders), Flanders would end up with a debt of 110% of its GDP (source: the times). The Belgian state debt at the moment is 100%. The difference is not that big...

Splitting up the debt on base of any other criteria (e.g. population) would mean that Flanders would have a smaller debt than it has now inside Belgium.

Originally Posted by WoI

The speeches of the elections congress of the NVA contain nothing of substance. (They're here but of course they're uniquely in Dutch. What would you expect LOL

So what? The parti socialist, mouvement reformateur, cdh etc almost all belgian parties don't have an English website. It doesn't say anything about their ideology. Red Herring?

In fact, The NVA is practically the only party in Belgium with a site that offers a Dutch, Francophone and English page, although only a small part.

And you know as good as me that NVA only since a couple of months gets money from the government (in Belgium, political parties need people in the parliament or senate to get subsidies). They simply don't have the funds nor people to translate the site. And It's a new site since a couple of months anyway. There's still loads of work on it...

Originally Posted by WoI

Economics aside, if there truly came a nationalistic putsch about in Flanders, it certainly would lose intellectually and culturally. There would be a non-trivial brain drain in both these aspects.

Oh no, we would lose Marc Reynebeau and some leftist artists. Who gives a...?

Originally Posted by WoI

After all, we would be talking about a country that would be about 200x70km in size ().

So what? There are lots of European small countries that are doing just fine.
An independant Flanders would be the 95th country out of 193 in population and the 24th of 193 in GDP.

That's not small. That's medium. And what exactly is your problem with a small country anyway? Is Luxemburg doing bad? Is Qatar doing bad? Is Denmark doing bad? Is Ireland doing bad (ow bad example lol). Is Switzerland doing bad?

In fact, the richest countries in the world are all 'small' countries.