Thread: Wladimir Putin proposes Russia-EU free trade zone

Makes perfect sense, but US is not going to be happy...

Originally Posted by Voland

In an editorial for a german newspaper russian PM Putin has outlined his vision of a free-trade zone between his country and the EU. " No tarrifs and no visas from Lisbon to Wladiwostok and a continental market worth trillions of Euros". Putin also wishes to drive economic cooperation and integration further and is travelling to Berlin today for a state visit where he might raise the issue. Eu governements have not yet commented but they will surely listen with interest. And it is certainly not a coincidence that the EU and Russia have just recently abolished tarrifs on imports/exports of raw materials like wood.......

'From Lisbon to Vladivostok': Putin Envisions a Russia-EU Free Trade Zone - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

The Nobel Prize Winnner Milton Friedman, who, I understand, is right up there with Jesus and Mammon to you people and occasionally makes sense even to ME has long maintained that Tariffs are bullshit and do NOTHING to accomplish their goal. It is also standard Holy Writ to the Randians.

Tariffs are TAXES on YOUR OWN PEOPLE, they are in no way charges against foreigners. They do nothing but make your own people pay more for products made in country over products imported. They are specifically aimed at giving your country a negative balance of payments, which I saw you all bitching about here just a month ago.

They're basically ongoing government bailouts of your own politically favored businesses that can't compete on the world market. They're NOT usually done to offset cheap labor but things like obsolete equipment or owners who want to send their daughters to private schools.

Pedo Putin is punctilously precise on this one.

John Drake posted.

Tariffs are TAXES on YOUR OWN PEOPLE, they are in no way charges against foreigners. They do nothing but make your own people pay more for products made in country over products imported. They are specifically aimed at giving your country a negative balance of payments, which I saw you all bitching about here just a month ago.

Tariffs can protect a Nation's industry. Tariffs can incentivise to buy home grown products. I don't buy into a blanket policy of no tariffs.

China still uses tariffs. Some are quite high. And China is still growing. Yeah, tariffs are always bad. Go tell em so!

Tariffs if used wisely can be beneficial. If used unwisely, not beneficial. To say tariffs are always bad is not quite the truth. Course, if you want to keep American industry offshoring, until we finally have NONE, forget about the tool known as tariffs. The only other way to combat the offshoring is for us to get on the same standard of living as the Chinese worker. Course, no one could afford even what China makes and sells and its a spiral to the bottom.

Tariffs can be your friend.

Originally Posted by Voland

In an editorial for a german newspaper russian PM Putin has outlined his vision of a free-trade zone between his country and the EU. " No tarrifs and no visas from Lisbon to Wladiwostok and a continental market worth trillions of Euros". Putin also wishes to drive economic cooperation and integration further and is travelling to Berlin today for a state visit where he might raise the issue. Eu governements have not yet commented but they will surely listen with interest. And it is certainly not a coincidence that the EU and Russia have just recently abolished tarrifs on imports/exports of raw materials like wood.......

'From Lisbon to Vladivostok': Putin Envisions a Russia-EU Free Trade Zone - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Sounds like a good idea. Hopefully the US and Russia will have one someday as well.

I think one should take that proposal serious and have a in depth look into it.

Vewy vewy clewer Wladimir.

It's only going to go so far though because the EU will not end subsidies of their industries.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I think one should take that proposal serious and have a in depth look into it.

While Angela Merkel has reacted cautiously to the proposal and pointed to recent russian decisions that seem to contradict Putins new stance (raising tariffs on imported cars f.e.) it is an undeniable sign that Russia is opening towards the West. Russia cooperating on the development of a joint missile shield with NATO countries ( NATO summit in Lisbon recently), Russia about to join the WTO and now Russia seeking closer ties with the EU certainly follow a pattern ( also russian reconciliatory gestures to EU countries like Poland might fall in that category).
At least some of the reasons are not hard to detect : Russia seriously needs to get its industrial base in order and competitive, since export of natural ressources and agricultural products is an insecure business for a country of its size. Therefore raising attractiveness for western investors and businesses that have recently left Russia in huge numbers is crucial, especially not to be left behind by countries like India and China. A russian trump card for that could be the proximity to the european markets and moving closer to the EU also politically would be the consequence.
For the EU on the other hand engaging Russia could suddenly become a lot easier, not to mention easier access to russian ressources and the russian export market ( especially for a country like Germany).
How such an agreement would look like in practice and how especially the US ( that seem to watch critical from the sidelines already) would react remains to be seen however.

I think how the US would react to such a deal should be a secondary concern at best. After all Europe does not have to ask for green light from America in order to make free trade deals with others and after all we are not talking about a free trade deal with North Korea but with Russia which might not be a perfect democracy but democracy enough to be in the Council of Europe.

A free trade agreement does not have to but possibly could be a great win-win situation for both sides. Thats why one should not prematurely dismiss Putins proposal.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I think how the US would react to such a deal should be a secondary concern at best. After all Europe does not have to ask for green light from America in order to make free trade deals with others and after all we are not talking about a free trade deal with North Korea but with Russia which might not be a perfect democracy but democracy enough to be in the Council of Europe.

A free trade agreement does not have to but possibly could be a great win-win situation for both sides. Thats why one should not prematurely dismiss Putins proposal.

I did not mean to imply the EU having to ask the US for permission, but rather pointed to possible political consequences. After all such an agreement could create political dynamics that push back american influence in Europe, for example on security policies. Countries that enter in free trade agreements etc. are unlikely to be at each others throats in the foreseeable future and who needs missile shields ? american nuclear warheads in central Europe ? etc. etc. in that case ? Especially at a time when the US Senate seems likely to reject the new disarmament treaty with Russia negotiated by Obama, based on alleged security concerns ?
And Wladimir Putin is far too clever not to have that in mind also.

Originally Posted by Voland

Russia cooperating on the development of a joint missile shield with NATO countries ( NATO summit in Lisbon recently),

Russia about to join the WTO

and now Russia seeking closer ties with the EU certainly follow a pattern ( also russian reconciliatory gestures to EU countries like Poland might fall in that category).

A russian trump card for that could be the proximity to the european markets and moving closer to the EU also politically would be the consequence.

How such an agreement would look like in practice and how especially the US ( that seem to watch critical from the sidelines already) would react remains to be seen however.

If you read Medvedev's speach on a "joint missile shield with NATO" you might've noticed that for the time being it will remain largely in the air: neither Russia nor US are backing off on issues such as S.Ossetia and Abkhasia; also Russia made it clear that it will either be an equal partner or none at all. Considering that NATO was always a US military arm directed first of all against USSR and now -- Russia, accepting Russia's terms would mean change in the very nature of NATO and it's transformation into a form of European-Russian defence force -- something Russia was suggesting few years back -- not a prospect US will be happy with.

Also, US will not be happy with the idea of losing it's European vassals to Russia and China in economic terms. Therefore it will apply as much pressure as it can on Germany and France to try and complicate their encreasing cooperation with Russia.

As for Russia's "trump card", it is not its proximity to the european markets, but its position (geographical, economic and political) in between Europe and Asia. Russia always was and still is half-European, half-Asian country with strong links and potencial influence on both.

Originally Posted by Alma

If you read Medvedev's speach on a "joint missile shield with NATO" you might've noticed that for the time being it will remain largely in the air: neither Russia nor US are backing off on issues such as S.Ossetia and Abkhasia; also Russia made it clear that it will either be an equal partner or none at all. Considering that NATO was always a US military arm directed first of all against USSR and now -- Russia, accepting Russia's terms would mean change in the very nature of NATO and it's transformation into a form of European-Russian defence force -- something Russia was suggesting few years back -- not a prospect US will be happy with.

Also, US will not be happy with the idea of losing it's European vassals to Russia and China in economic terms. Therefore it will apply as much pressure as it can on Germany and France to try and complicate their encreasing cooperation with Russia.

As for Russia's "trump card", it is not its proximity to the european markets, but its position (geographical, economic and political) in between Europe and Asia. Russia always was and still is half-European, half-Asian country with strong links and potencial influence on both.

As long as the Muzzies from Turkey are excluded from the EU, I'm happy.

What I want to know is why there hasn't been any movement towards a NAFTA-EU free trade zone.

Russia is at the cusp of a demographic nightmare. They have at best 20 years until their population ‘runs out.’ Thus they have to set their place in the world now.

Putin maybe sees an opening in a weak EU, and is looking to exploit it. This weakness might be the current debt crisis. Maybe something else.

They could be looking to counter China… for although Russia and China just signed a trade agreement, Russia still fears its largest neighbor.

Putin is a ardent nationalist… this is a power play… the details of which we have not begun to discover.

Demographics of Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia