Thread: "Pirate Party" wins 9% in Berlin-state elections

Originally Posted by lutherf

They want an unconditional basic income? Wow.

I can see the appeal for the youths in this but I really think that this is a platform born of too much time playing Sims.

You are really an expert in politics that are not fed to you by your corp. media are you?

The unconditional basic income is actually not a new or outragous proposal.
It is favoured by politicans across many parties (from the conservative CDU, the social democrats, the Green party,...) and privat sector buisness leaders.

In Germany there is already a conditional basic income with alot of varriations (for students, for unemployed, for the elderly, child support, for ...). This is based on the wellfare state principle that is part of our constitution.

The idea of the unconditional basic income is to scap all the individual programs and get rid of all the neccessary burocracy.
Without the overhead and the simplification of the tax code that comes hand in hand, billions of tax Euros could be saved.

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

You are really an expert in politics that are not fed to you by your corp. media are you?

The unconditional basic income is actually not a new or outragous proposal.
It is favoured by politicans across many parties (from the conservative CDU, the social democrats, the Green party,...) and privat sector buisness leaders.

In Germany there is already a conditional basic income with alot of varriations (for students, for unemployed, for the elderly, child support, for ...). This is based on the wellfare state principle that is part of our constitution.

The idea of the unconditional basic income is to scap all the individual programs and get rid of all the neccessary burocracy.
Without the overhead and the simplification of the tax code that comes hand in hand, billions of tax Euros could be saved.

Oh, I'm quite sure that they aren't unique in their desires. I'm also quite sure that they have all kinds of justifications for why such a thing is "good for the general welfare of the people". Heck, most 10 year olds have a whole stack of good ideas regarding why they need an allowance....or a bump up in an existing allowance.

Zoido, the idea of receiving benefits not tied to some form of productivity is the first step in achieving eternal dependence. A State that proffers such "benefit" on the people is acting in a way not much different than the farmer who tosses grain to his chickens or slop to his hogs. It's a wonderful relationship for all involved right up until it's time to make soup.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Oh, I'm quite sure that they aren't unique in their desires. I'm also quite sure that they have all kinds of justifications for why such a thing is "good for the general welfare of the people". Heck, most 10 year olds have a whole stack of good ideas regarding why they need an allowance....or a bump up in an existing allowance.

Zoido, the idea of receiving benefits not tied to some form of productivity is the first step in achieving eternal dependence. A State that proffers such "benefit" on the people is acting in a way not much different than the farmer who tosses grain to his chickens or slop to his hogs. It's a wonderful relationship for all involved right up until it's time to make soup.

Spare me your American fantasy vodoo-neo-liberalism pep-talk.

Those are not benefits. Having enough to survive and live with minimum dignity is not an obstacle to productivity nor a mortal danger to society.
It's the obligation of society to care for the weak... that is a principle of advanced philosphy in western societies.

Things like a basic income or welfare are privileges of living in our civilization / society. Discussing how to make the full-filment of that moral obligation most efficent and lowering the cost is not a dream bonanza.
So much for my European social market economy pep talk.

If it ever be implemented or not is another thing It's not very high on the political agenda right now.
There is currently much more discussion on whether or not a minimum wage should be introduced... I don't know how I stand on that one.

I like the german principle of keeping government out of price fixing wages. (something being done in the US)
But I can see the benefit of removing the incentive of wage dumping by using cross-border labour traffic.

I guess the party´s name is taken from the "Pirate bay" a copyright violating download platform.

A typical Member of the Pirate party, Jörg Tauss:
"On 6 March 2009, his home and offices in Berlin and Karlsruhe were raided by the LKAs of both Berlin and Baden-Württemberg in a search for child pornography which he had allegedly obtained on his mobile phone"

"On 20 June 2009, Tauss announced he was leaving the SPD for the Pirate Party Germany in protest against that party's support of legislation that would block child pornography websites"


Jörg Tauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

Spare me your American fantasy vodoo-neo-liberalism pep-talk.

Those are not benefits. Having enough to survive and live with minimum dignity is not an obstacle to productivity nor a mortal danger to society.
It's the obligation of society to care for the weak... that is a principle of advanced philosphy in western societies.

Things like a basic income or welfare are privileges of living in our civilization / society. Discussing how to make the full-filment of that moral obligation most efficent and lowering the cost is not a dream bonanza.
So much for my European social market economy pep talk.

If it ever be implemented or not is another thing It's not very high on the political agenda right now.
There is currently much more discussion on whether or not a minimum wage should be introduced... I don't know how I stand on that one.

I like the german principle of keeping government out of price fixing wages. (something being done in the US)
But I can see the benefit of removing the incentive of wage dumping by using cross-border labour traffic.

The obligation to care for the weak is an individual obligation, not a societal one. It must be a choice that people make rather than something which is coerced.

There are those in any society who simply can not be as productive as others. Perhaps through injury or illness one might become dependent on the good will of others and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with providing such individuals with the basic necessities to preserve their dignity. Unfortunately, in every society there are also those who choose to be unproductive. Those people must be allowed to suffer the consequences of their choices. As long as their choice of actions tends to serve only themselves then they should only receive the benefits which those choices provide.

Originally Posted by lutherf

The obligation to care for the weak is an individual obligation, not a societal one. It must be a choice that people make rather than something which is coerced.

There are those in any society who simply can not be as productive as others. Perhaps through injury or illness one might become dependent on the good will of others and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with providing such individuals with the basic necessities to preserve their dignity. Unfortunately, in every society there are also those who choose to be unproductive. Those people must be allowed to suffer the consequences of their choices. As long as their choice of actions tends to serve only themselves then they should only receive the benefits which those choices provide.

Neither the German System nor I disagree with you on the last part.

But as I believe in the Republic and the government being the arm of the people / society. I don't buy into the "individual choice" thing.
You don't have an individual choice NOT to pay for the iraq war... neither do you have a choice not to pay a parking ticket. Those are decisions / rules decided upon society by society. There is no opting out from those.
The same is true for welfare.
The people, through their representatives, have chosen to provide it. So its become the duty of all citizens to support that policy of our republic untill the people decide to change it.

Pushing a punk attitude of respect for personal irresponsibility in face of standing democratic decisions, is undermining the principles of democracy itself.

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

Neither the German System nor I disagree with you on the last part.

But as I believe in the Republic and the government being the arm of the people / society. I don't buy into the "individual choice" thing.
You don't have an individual choice NOT to pay for the iraq war... neither do you have a choice not to pay a parking ticket. Those are decisions / rules decided upon society by society. There is no opting out from those.
The same is true for welfare.
The people, through their representatives, have chosen to provide it. So its become the duty of all citizens to support that policy of our republic untill the people decide to change it.

Pushing a punk attitude of respect for personal irresponsibility in face of standing democratic decisions, is undermining the principles of democracy itself.

Yeah....as you probably guessed, I don't much go for that "tyranny of the masses" thing either. Democracy (even in the form of a representative democracy) is also a really, really bad idea. There is plenty of room for democratic principles in governing a free society but, at some point, you need an accountable individual or the whole process falls apart.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Yeah....as you probably guessed, I don't much go for that "tyranny of the masses" thing either. Democracy (even in the form of a representative democracy) is also a really, really bad idea. There is plenty of room for democratic principles in governing a free society but, at some point, you need an accountable individual or the whole process falls apart.

Well, I agree that it's not perfect and everything.
But so far it's the best unperfect system that has ever worked for such a long time. It always needs improvement though.
Accountability in personal behaviour & government is always a big issue.

But I would not fall for ideologies that dream about a theoretical maximum of personal liberty & economic prosperity. There is a huge difference between theory and practical implementation.
The the process of getting from here to there is also hard to predict... might be messy and result into something unexpected.

That's why I prefer Ordoliberalism.
It puts personal liberty & responsibility first, but respects the fact that we need a force that helps to manage human relations in order to maximize the results for the society as a whole.
That force (government) should be as small as possible, but stand ready to interveen if neccessary. Since government is choosen democratically it has a mandate that should be respected as long as it sticks to the rule of law.
An important obligation of government is for example to keep markets free for competition, which is important for a effective market economy.
While not perfect, that system works very good and gurantees a very high level of personal liberties and rights for all individuells and a flurishing economy so far.

So much to the sound background philosophy of the german Eurofags

Just wanted to add that the Pirate party has already two Swedes in the European Parliament (as part of the Green in the EP). They are active in many European countries but with the Berlin election now, there are pirates in the Berlin, the European Parliament and on municipal in Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Denmark and the Czech Republic.

I think the party has some valid demands. Especially when it comes to privacy rights and protection and internet neutrality. But in regards to sharing videos and stuff it smells a bit self serving to me. Still, the Pirate's success is a good thing as it makes above issues more important and motivates for example the Greens to get more active about it.

Although I totally understand the desire for privacy on the internet I think it needs to be tempered with a bit of reality. If, for example, you're seeding copyrighted material on a P2P connection you really can't (shouldn't) have any expectation of privacy. OTOH, your private emails and private accounts should definitely be private as you have no intention of sharing them with anyone.

When I saw the words "Pirate Party" in the thread title I thought the party actually had something to do with pirates. I assumed each member dressed up as a pirate; has an eye patch over one eye; that they all have one leg each and have to hobble on a wooden leg; that they each have a parrot on their shoulder; and that the symbol of the party is a Jolly Roger.

I imagined that they would be like Germany's equivalent of Britain's Monster Raving Loony Party, who were jointly led by "Howling Laud" Hope and his pet cat Cat Mandu (who both took over the party in 1999 after its previous leader "Screaming Lord" Sutch committed suicide) but now "Howling Laud" Hope leads the party on his own after Cat Mandu got run over by a motor vehicle in 2002. The Monster Raving Loony Party describe their political position as "Sitting, facing forward".


"Howling Laud" Hope and his cat, Cat Mandu, were joint leaders of the Monster Raving Loony Party between 1999 and 2002 until Cat Mandu's tragic death. Unfortunately, they were never elected as joint Prime Ministers otherwise they would have livened up any boring world summit


The party symbol and its leader "Howling Laud" Hope, who always appears dressed as a cowboy. Seeing him on TV standing on the stage in the constituency he campaigns to become MP of amongst other party MPs as the constituency results are read out during General Elections is hilarious. Unfortunately, he never wins and his party also never wins the General Election.

Amongst the Monster Raving Loony Party's policies are:

The election of the statue of Queen Victoria in the Queen Vic pub in BBC soap opera EastEnders to be elected as Queen replacing Queen Elizabeth the Second (below)



Refusing to sign up to the euro, but inviting the rest of Europe to join the pound (£)

Drivers can go straight over a roundabout when there's no traffic coming "to make driving through Milton Keynes more fun"

Traffic cops "too stupid" for normal police work to be retrained as vicars

Withdrawal of MPs' £118,000 expenses allowance, and the money "in future be distributed to the poor and needy so that they can waste it instead"

Any MP whose constituency sells off a school playing field for development will be required to relinquish his own back garden as a replacement sports facility for the school

All motorways to become massive cycle tracks instead

All speed cameras will be abolished and replaced by a new device fitted to cars which will automatically slow down to the speed limit when driven though an infra-red beam

The introduction of a 99p coin to "save on change"

Banning semi-colons; no-one knows how to use them (except the person who wrote this sentence)

Banning vaccinations, to be replaced by nurses with shot guns to hide around playgrounds

So imagine my extreme disappointment when I discovered that the Pirate Party were just to do with internet piracy. Although they do say that Germans don't have a sense of humour.