I found it hard to get some information on this so I have some questions about this.

If your are not on your own private property, aren't you obligated to have some sort of identification with you?

here in the netherlands you can get fined for €50 if you dont have this card (or a passport but thats rather unpractical) with you:



In the GOP debate i heard that it would only be obliged to immigrants. But how does this help? the governement would still not be able to check if you were illegal or not if you arent carrying a card.

Not in the U.S. If an officer requests identification you do not have to comply unless he has reasonable suspicion to detain you.

Of course if you are driving on public roads you must carry your driver's license and present it when asked by law enforcement, but other than that the government has no reason to force us to carry identification.

Nope, I have trouble believing that the government can legally require you to carry ID in this nation.

Police are allowed to check for drivers license because it only restricts a single type of travel and the benefits outweigh the potential violation of individual rights.

However, making ID a requirement for travel off your own property is a significant violation of the right to travel freely. Further most American citizens (at least true American's) would strongly object to being slapped with a fine because they may have walked across the street to their mailbox without I.D. or if going for a jog, forgetting one's wallet and a host of other completely benign incidents became suddenly criminalized.

As far as tamperproof or making an I.D. which is impossible to forge, its not possible, everything which can still be manufactured by one party is theoretically produceable by a different party. It might be very difficult, and it might not be worth it, but its always possible.

I believe this sort of law (forcing people to carry ID) would be almost impossible to implement in the US, mostly because of the civil rights issue. For instance, if I've done nothing wrong, does the police have a right to stop me and ask for ID? On the other hand, how does one quantify "reasonable suspicion"?

I do think it would make sense to have such a law in some states though to counter (or try to counter) the problem of rounding up illegal aliens ...

That said, many other places have the same sort of laws as Erik says the Netherlands does. For instance, it's mandatory for all legal HK residents (and also foreigners, though I'm not too sure) to carry some form of ID on them as the police may stop and request anyone to produce ID. Of course, they don't really treat it as a criminal offense if someone forgets their ID in their hotel room, or at home, but the law's there neverthless.

There is usually a practical reason behind such laws though - in HK, it's mostly to counter the problem of illegal aliens piling in from China (and elsewhere, but mostly mainland China).

Just my $.02

The "I Vant To See Your Papers" attitude doesn't quite cut it in America. This is one of the problems behind all the illegal immigration. Thakfully, we don't follow the European attitude of surrendering all to the government.

Any ID than Man can produce can be hacked, and most certainly will. You will be able to buy "tamperproof" IDs on any streetcorner in LA.

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So, you don't think the policy should be implemented in areas having problems with illegal immigration? Just curious ...

Good God, I certainly hope not!

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

no, the national ID is supposed to be for everyone.....anyway..


wow you mean a progressive European country demands you have valid government ID on your person?

I am SHOCKED..SHOCKED" theres gambling going on here ( a reference to Casablanca and the inanity of our own progressive nitwts who call a national ID a big brother prop).....what will the great unwashed say?

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Hong Kong is about as progressive as it gets in Asia, and they have similar laws. The laws are there for a purpose, though. You can't just apply an American situation to other countries. Not saying your doing that, but just trying to make a point.

okay but so what? Why is it okay there and not here? I am speaking to PL's (progressive libs)...what is so wrong with a national id card? I fial to see the intrusion into my life at all, IF am taken to a police station they have access to the NCIC and everything thats in the record about me, so what I could care less....

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

I don't see anything wrong with a national ID card, Imperator. In fact, I think it's required in certain areas in the US to combat the illegal immigration problem.

The grey area IMO arises when the cops stop someone on the road who hasn't broken any laws and ask for ID ...

In a place like HK, this wouldn't be a big deal, but the US is different.

then we agree...good..I know this is a shop worn phrase, but in some circumstances its apt- “if you’re not a criminal what are you afraid of"?....see what I mean...?

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

The only grey area though would be one of civil rights ... as in, WHY should the cops stop me if I've done nothing wrong?

Otherwise, we agree.

So if I go for a run, a walk, a bikeride, or do anything without my ID I am a criminal?

The problem I have with a national ID card is that I should not have to justify my actions to the government, they should have to justify why my actions are not allowed.

The day the burden of proof switches from the government to proving someone is a criminal to the citizens proving that they are not, is the day I turn in my citizenship and leave the country.

I got an ID card too. I don't know if I got to carry in with me all the time ... I doubt that though. I've never heard that it's an offence not to carry it. I don't even know if you even have to have one. But you just need it in certain situations. So it's just impractical not to have one. But I've never been asked to show my ID-card without any good reason. You usually only need it when you want to open a bank account, go to a foreign country, get a passport or a driving license or something like that ... so basically in situations you need to identify yourself. It really isn't such a big deal.