Our money has not always referred to god nor has our Pledge of Allegiance always referred to a higher being.
By using this line of reasoning in a discussion about separation of church and state, you open yourself to a giant no-win argument. By using that logic, even the smallest infringement of religion into government leads to justification of any and all infringement of religion into government. A slippery slope if ever I saw one. The completely justifiable response from your opposition then, would be "exactly! Thats why we should NEVER allow this kind of thing". You see Mrs. M, you've merely proved that if we give you an inch, you will gladly take a mile.

SLIDELL -- A painting of Christ, with a sign reading "To know peace, obey these laws," has no place in Slidell City Court, the Louisiana American Civil Liberties Union says. from your opening post. You know, I am a great lover of art and without the era of the renaissance and the multitude of religious art, we would never have known the value of art at all. But this painting you're talking about isn't just art is it?
There is little doubt that the text beneath a depiction of Jesus specifically refers to Christian law. I rather like art in public buildings. I would be more than a little nervous being an atheist expecting an impartial verdict in that Slidell courthouse.

See above. Read opening post.

We don't actually live in a democracy. Right? Pretty hard to argue that one. I tell you what...immigration would be a HUGE issue if we did!

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Atheism is most certainly not a belief in nothing. It is a lack of belief in god(s). If you said you believed I had a hundred dollars in my back pocket and I said I didn't share that belief, that does not mean that I have no belief; it means I do not believe I have a hundred dollars in my pocket.

The rest of your post was nearly as inane as that single statement and I'm quite certain you can do better.

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

I don't know why some of you folks continue to make that claim about atheism. Its like you're hoping you can try it on some newbie and win an argument even when you know that what you're saying is wrong. That's a bit distressing. If you can convince me I'm wrong it is unlikely that I will argue the exact same point again. What good does that do anyone? May as well just call people names and throw rocks.

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

How is calling you a strict constructionist insulting you?

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

It was the rolling eyes that did it. If you didn't mean it as an insult then I'm sorry for overreacting.

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The U.N. is right; you can't be any more "un."
Than you are right now, the U.N. is undone.
Another mushroom cloud, another smoking gun.
The threat is real, the Locust King has come.
Don't tell me the truth; I don't like what they've done.
It's payback time at the United Abominations!

Mr. Chaos,

The Constitution is not a strict construction. One should read the thoughts of the men who penned it (particularly those of Madison) to know what their INTENT was in phrasing the document as they did. If you were to do this (and, apparently, most judges in American over the last 200+ years have done so), you'd know that there was an intent to create a palpable wall between church & state.

And that's why cases like this are always losers.

Not to mention a waste of time & resources.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Shades of neighboring Alabama.

Sometimes I wish the Confederates had won the Civil War. Then I wouldn't have to share my country with such backward thinking people. I swear, sometimes I don't think these people will be satisfied until the whole damn nation is the equivalent of Alabama & Mississippi.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Not me, that would have meant I was stuck there instead of being allowed to remove myself from the lands of bibles, racism and other such cultural delights.

Typical bullshit from another "superior" American.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

That's right, and don't you ever forget it.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Threads like this always trouble me in that I'm able to find out just how close-minded my fellow citizens can be. But, I also look at such threads as an opportunity to share some of the knowledge I've collected over the years regarding such matters.

Any who reads my posts with any regularity know that I regard the Age of Enlightenment and our Founding Fathers in high regard. They'll also know that I make my living as a professional historian, primarily. I only share these two sentences not to engage in any braggadocio, but rather to show that I have spent the requisite time studying & reflecting upon the bodies of work left by the men of the 18th century who founded this nation of ours.

As such, I would like to turn to the words of a few of these sage fathers. While lounging about the pool this afternoon on an inflatable raft with many cervezas at close hand (the decision to install a pool at my home this summer has been a grand one, one by which all four of my children readily agree ), I spent a few hours both reddening my fair skin and perusing the words of some of our nation's founders.

Ben Franklin was one of the more apparently religious of our famous forefathers. I'd sum Franklin's religious bent, however, not as purely fundamentalist Christian, but rather as a Unitarian. In essense, Franklin believed that God rules the world and the best way to serve God is to serve one another. Franklin also believed that Jesus was a good moralist, but doubted seriously his divinity. One month before Franklin died, ol' Ben wrote that he would no longer trouble himself with the question of divinity in that he felt he'd have "soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." In the same letter, written to Rev. Ezra Stiles, who was then the president of Yale and a Congregationalist minister, Franklin wrote that "[a]ll sects here [in Phila.] have experienced my good will in assisting them with subscriptions for building their new places of worship; and, as I have never [publicly] opposed any of their doctrines, I hope to go out of the world in peace with them all." In other words, Franklin didn't want Stiles to share the letter, because the letter was precipitated by a letter from Stiles that asked after Franklin's beliefs. Here was a man who had lived well into his 80s, much of it in the public eye. Up until March 1790, one month before his death, no one had ever asked after Franklin's personal religious beliefs (Franklin says as much in the Stiles letter). And even on the one occasion he shared them, he asked that they not be shared publicly.

Square this with the modern-day politician, who much like the hypocrite of the Bible lacking any humility whatsoever, will pray openly on the street corner in order only to be heard by other men. While Franklin felt religion good for people, he also felt it a private matter best left amongst a man's immediate family.

More to come re: Washington & Jefferson (and a dabble of Paine, for good measure). But alas, my wife is preparing tacos & needs me to run out for a head of lettuce before we partake of a couple of children's movies at the local drive-in theater. I believe Ratatouille and Surf's Up were on the marquee when I drove by yesterday. . .

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

A painting of Christ in a courthouse is over the top. It should go to a museum if it has any historic value. Howver, the ACLU also wants the plaque that reads, "To know peace, obey these laws". ACLU sues city over Jesus painting - Yahoo! News Out of the context of the painting, the plaque is not an issue. It is a courthouse.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Once again, how does anyone know it’s a painting of Jesus? Couldn’t it just as easily be a painting of Ernie the Roman court stenographer standing in front of a hazy sun?

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

But it isn't.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas