Dai, I agree with you, but I'd even say that deprivation of freedom is going too far in all but the most extreme cases.

I think many people here probably don't know what it's like to be on probation or parole in America.

Probationers and Parolees in America are the modern day slaves. Ask any probation officer or parole officer you know how many of their slaves they expect to avoid a prison sentence. Unless they lie to you they will say none. And their prison sentence, while not actually being in prison can be extended for life. Any infraction at all can be an excuse to send them back, and it's not considered a new sentence. They go back into incarceration and come out without ANY time served.

For instance my brother who I've mentioned here before chose to be revoked. He was on probation for misdemeanor dwi. He'd served time and been on that probation for at least 15 years. They'd always find something. They didn't like where he lived. He was ordered to move or be revoked. They didn't like where he worked, he was ordered to find another job or be revoked. If he peed dirty he'd be revoked. He couldn't drive of course, without spending thousands of dollars. His options were limited as to where he could live.

He said and I agree (having spoken to him on numerous occasions) that his probation officer was never going to let him go. So he got drunk, at home, peed dirty, was revoked and then wen't to court for a felony. He's no in prison and he wasn't there 10 days before they were saying time served and he needed an address to parole to.

He saw it as his only option to get free. He thought if he served his time he'd get a chance to be free. He jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. His parole officer was at my house within days of him informing the parole board where he intended to move in to.

She told me all the rules and it's just plain pure naziism. The boy is a slave to the state. I don't see him ever getting out of the system. If we were rich, Lohans or Hiltons we could probably buy him out of the system; but we aren't.

I see my only brother as a victim of a system which is both medieval and NOT in search of justice but rather pacification.

My brother does not have a single aggravated offense on his record. He's had dwi's, public intoxications, and various traffic tickets (none aggravated). He's never harmed another human being in his life and yet his God given right to freedom has been denied him pretty much his entire life.

To hell with any bastard that says he worked hard to earn his sentence.

Here I was being silly, thinking you had to be a criminal to go to jail in the first place.

I think the parole system is bullshit - at least in America. Its okay to release prisoners before they have served the full length, but once they are released the criminal record should also be deleted, and no strings should be attached.

This would mean that they can get back into society asap.

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January the 20th 2009. The day I started to respect America!

Well it seems we have another session from Mr Cbussey. If your rantings are any comparison to your brother's attitude, I would have to say it was his mouth rather than his actions that got him in trouble. However, the way you keep downplaying his actions as "only" a bunch of misdemeanors that finally got him convicted of a felony, I'm not sure we are discussing a "brother". Your posts indicate a serious attitude that the rules apply to others but not yourself.

Were your "brother" to serve his time, he would hit his Mandatory Release Date, and would have no probation, parole, or other encumberances. His "peeing dirty" was a violation of the agreement he entered into voluntarily to get out early. He made a promise and broke it. Sorry, back to prison.

I have to ask if there are any laws that you think are inviolate, not subject to your "only" argument. You have the universal inmate attitude, which is "The rules don't apply to me, I'll never get caught, If I do it's someone else's fault, and the classic 'The System Is Out to Get Me'."

The inability to understand the rules of society are exactly why we have prisons. You, or your "brother" have been removed from society because he has an inability to accept what society wants. Get with the program, and maybe he will be accepted again someday.

Once again, the laws were not written by me. Speak to your representatives about them.

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We have computer classes, Gameboys were available on our canteen orders, but have been discontinued, although existing Gameboys have been Grandfathered, telephones in every pod, available through the CIPS system, and the continuation of hormone therapy if the inmate was on it before incarceration. You can thank lawyers for all this.

Pram, you're in Colorado. A bit of research would have shown all of this.

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Baiting is not allowed. Were you serious, you would have read the headers and found out that the name is not "Spaz". I doubt if you have the ability to follow that simple rule, although let me tell you that I have never contested any of your posts, as I find that the use of improper names is the hallmark of the small mind. You marginalize yourself.

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Well, isn't prison supposed to be there to punish people by revoking their freedom for a certain amount of time, so to speak? I mean, there are plenty of things we can do to prisoners to make their stay in prison worse without violating health codes or being cruel/unusual.

Or would it not be beneficial to help some of these people back into society?

The funny thing is that some of the nicest people that I have dealt with are lifers in for murder, etc. There's an entire teatise to be written there, but it's not for me to do.

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Certainly the system CBussey is describing seems bizarre to me. You do the crime, you do the time. Then you get on with your life. If anything, time 'inside' should give you the opportunity to reflect on where you went wrong, and there should be some guidance to help you get on the right track.

especially among young people, who often have been poorly parented, or just haven't developed enough to really think about the implications of their behaviour A while ago I posted a thread about the teenage brain, or something like that. We now know that the a lot of 'risky' behaviour is not necessarily 'bad', but indicative of developmental factors.

I don't know how many young people do the same things but don't get caught, and later on, look back and think 'WTF was I thinking?'

Re the loss of freedom CBussey raised. I think that depends on the circumstances. In many instances its not going to be the right solution. Community Service Orders would be just as beneficial ... so for example someone who is caught DUI might have to work in a paraplegic ward where they get a dose of what DUI can result in. They get to talk to people just like them, but who weren't so lucky as them. People who will never walk again because they, or someone else, was doing the exact same thing as our offender.

This is probably going to be far more effective in getting an offender to think about their actions, and consequences.

Obviously there are cases where incarceration is the best option - where someone is a threat to society, and does not show any likelihood of recognising that. In some of these cases however prisons may not be the place for them. There may be other options that are more suitable.

In any case - I am really quite hard line about drugs. I think marijuana, for example, is far worse than it is generally believed to be. We should all be aware by now that drug induced psychosos is common among those who use manufactured drugs, however there is some evidence that marijuana is also far worse than previously believed. In any case, while the drug itself may not be so bad, if used as a lifestyle drug, rather than as a recreational drug (which is very common) it can have serious impacts on the user.

Even so, I don't believe that prison sentences are warranted in cases of possession/use of marijuana. I believe that drug education and CSO's would be far better use of taxpayer dollars, and far more beneficial to the offender.

Isn't that one purpose of the punishment?I'm not sure what that has to do with it. I'm simply saying that going out of our way to make prison life more miserable for them might not be the best of ideas.

I just stopped by this thread to say that even suggesting prisons create criminals is like saying maternity wards make women pregnant.

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-Eric

"For whoever habitually suppresses the truth in the interests of tact will produce a deformity from the womb of his thought." -Sir Basil H. Liddel-Hart

Well, that's neither helpful nor insightful nor clever.


Do prisons increase criminal behavior? That's the real question.

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Maybe it should have been the title of the thread.

In answer to the "real question" my answer is no. If I thought the answer was yes, I'd prefer people who rob, rape, murder, and accept insider trading tips never went to prison.

Martha Stewart spent time in prison. Did it increase her criminal behavior?

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-Eric

"For whoever habitually suppresses the truth in the interests of tact will produce a deformity from the womb of his thought." -Sir Basil H. Liddel-Hart

Well, sure, the singular example clearly disproves a generalization.

Damn, you've figured it all out!

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Improper running of prisons allows sharpening of criminal skills, yes.