drgoodtrips made what I thought was a good point, but I didn't want to derail the thread:

To me, it makes perfect sense. What's the solution here? Should prisons really be about punishment? If so, what do we do with the people that are released from them angrier and more capable than before?

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Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

It's an interesting topic, one I've been interested in lately.

The function, and least in theory of prison are three-fold, number one is prevention. No-one wants to go to jail, because it is not a nice place. For that to happen, prison must not BE a nice place to begin with. Going there cannot be a trivial experience.

Number two is punishment for your crimes, you are supposed to emerge from jail with the express desire to never, never come back again. Once again, effective, ex-cons don’t want to go back.

Number three is rather moot to this discussion; it’s for the storage of world-class bastards who we never want to see again. In this respect prison is quite effective, we don't.

So, where it all goes wrong is pretty much here, prison WORKS, but not in the right fashion. We want to discourage those inclined from criminal acts through the fear of prison. What actually happens in a significant number of cases is that criminals are quite determined to never go back to prison, but not deterred from the actions that would put them there.

Instead, through both desperation (The stigmatism of being a criminal, the same lack of life-skills that lead them to the criminal life in the first place) and new-found skill (prison is both a harsh learning environment and provides face-time with far more experienced, hard criminals) many will engage in brutal, effective and violent crime, minimising their chances of getting caught and maximising the pay-off.

For example, a man who simply walks into a store with his face covered and guns down the attendant without a single word is far less likely to be caught, and the kind of lack of empathy that gives a man that kind of inhumanity is more than likely learned in an environment like prison.

However, offenders must be punished; there must be punishment for crime. So, what's the solution?

It's a toughie.

Personally, I'm of the opinion of creating an entirely new prison system, where each prisoner is given a wider personal area, more humanising conditions and only allowed interaction with other prisoners in a constructive environment (classroom, workshop, sport, ect). The catch is that the prisoner will not be released until he has paid a monetary value, determined by the court to be fair compensation for his crime, as well as having paid for the cost of his imprisonment by the state (or company, in the case of a corp prison).

That money is earned by production accrued in the prison; no rich man will be buying his way out. Whatever work (and there is a lot of options here), the prisoner will be engaged in a productive activity, in a relatively safe and interactive environment, his mental and physical health a guaranteed right to him.

This is a rough idea, and I'm open to criticism, ideas, ect.

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

Damn fine post, G-man. The financial restitution concept is interesting, but I don't know how realistic it is.

I think on your other points we're very much on the same page. I like your approach.

__________________
Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

Drug use should not be a jailable offense unless someone else is hurt.
More generally, any crime that does not hurt another person should not be a jailable offense. Fines, community service (man, we sure could use more people to pick up trash!) - all other considerations beside jail as it ruins most chances of securing a good job and being productive member of society.

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I think our prison system needs some severe reform.

For "lifers", there's only so much you can do. Nothing they do while in prison is going to make things much tougher for them. Put 'em all together, let 'em mingle, and let them kill each other.

For those serving lesser sentences, my ideas will probably seem more severe. I say put them in solitary confinement. These are people who will be, at some time, released into prison. Why would we want to put them in an environment where they interact with the very element we want them to learn to avoid?

They wouldn't have to worry about some lifer shankin' them in the shower because he looked at the guy's lunch in the cafeteria. The only person who could possibly pose a threat to an inmate would be the inmate himself.

The only visitors they should be permitted are their attorneys and immediate family. Severely restrict their access to other prisoners, and I think the likelihood of them being a repeat offender is much less.

If the resources existed, I would make seperate prisons for the following groups:

Lifers
Those doing 50 years to life
Those doing 20 to 50 years
Those doing 5-20 years
Those doing less than 5 years

Of course, that's my "perfect world" scenario. I don't believe that implementing a plan like mine would be financially feasible, but I think it would seperate those who may realize the error of their ways, want to just get out of prison, and who can be rehabilitated from those less likely to share those same concerns...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Cheers, it's good we're on the same page. As for the aspect of financial restitution and its practicality, I've been giving it thought. Prison alone is expensive, and the last thing we want to create is an inescapable situation, prison needs to be something from which people emerge from, period, let alone emerge bettered. (except of course in the world-class bastard category I just mentioned, there is no hope for, or even desire to better some of the worst examples of inhumanity that some are capable of)

Personal drug use should be de-criminalised, total agreement here.

A movement away from compulsory imprisonment, agreement here as well. Prison should be a last-resort measure for crimes that have caused inexcusable damage, be that personal, physical or financial hardship. No-one in prison should be there unless they have caused significant harm.

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

Steve, the idea of complete solitary that you put forward would both be unduely expensive and cause horrific injury to the mental health of the inmate.

This dove-tails into the real crux of the problem put forward in the first place, how do we better the individual, and deter him from crime in the future? Solitary would create bitter, rage-filled individuals with a reduced ability to function productivly in society, and massive mental health issues.

EDIT: Sorry, I did miss this.

So, what would you put forward towards a real-world solution? You do see that there is a problem with how prison acts today, what are your thoughts towards constructive improvement?

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

Well, for starters, segregation has to happen.

People serving 23 life sentences for mass murder shouldn't be permitted in the same areas as those who are serving 2-5 for breaking and entering. The guys serving 2-5 might well be rehabilitated. Even if those serving life sentences could be rehabilitated, they're never leaving prison. Keep the two groups completely seperated, 100% of the time.

I would start there...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Absolute agreement. Those who have been deemed by a legitimate court of law to never be acceptable for release must be kept from those who have a hope of rehabilitation. Folk such as this are poison.

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

I've always envisioned a sort of graduated system, sort of expanding on the '3 strikes' paradigm. First offenses should go to some sort of minimum security facility, with an emphasis on rehabilitation and/or education. (Perhaps akin to G-Man's approach? Great post, btw!) Second offenders, medium security, as punishment but with rehab opportunities available for those who may still be salvagable. Third offense, medium to high security purely as punishment, possibly in conjunction with 3 strikes (or 4?). There would of course need to be some flexibility for first offender mass-murderers and such, but as a general approach, it seems to make sense...

There's little we can do about any who may come out worse for wear beyond trying to keep an eye on them to reduce potential subsequent damage to society - They've officially paid their debt to society, so trying to tack on additional 'penalties' after the fact, especially pre-emptive ones, is both a violation of their rights and a situation ripe for abuse by whatever powers that be.

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Today's forecast: Government corruption.

Tomorrow's forecast: 100% chance of more 'politics as usual'

Maybe it's finally time to vote Libertarian

You raise an interesting point. I guess my only fear would be that people who get started young (making some bad decisions) could end up trapped in a max security situation which will destroy them.

I look at my behavior when I was 13 or 15. I did things that could have landed me in jail, had I been caught. I've made some better decisions in the last 20 years, and I'm not sure that it would make sense for those crimes to stack up. It seems like that would create a situation where someone says "I've got 3 strikes, so it doesn't matter what I do now."

Hopefully I'm making sense.

__________________
Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

Some of this is already being done, just not this way necessarily.

Essentially, prisons are creating financial problems in the communities they are in, and in some business sectors.
For instance, here in Indiana - a prison has an entire printing facility, on the market would be worth approx. $15 million...a REAL example of what they will print for - 200,000 full color (both side) glossy fliers $23 per 1000....NO printer can possibly compete with that, materials alone is $17 per 1000!

3 large printers in Indianapolis have went out of business in the last 2 years, the printing facility was upgraded 3 years ago.

So...we send people to prison to put us out of work?
Hardly

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The government cannot give without first taking.

The cheif advantage of utilizing prison work is low production costs, the same with outsourcing. The American workforce is not a solid thing, nor is business, it is fluid. The United States is a first world nation, where high-tech industry is expanding at a break-neck rate. There is more money and more oppertunity today than ever before. America is not hindered by financial output from prisons, but enriched. Prisons are a taxation albertross over the neck of the taxpayer, and any action they take to lessen that is of benifit to you, the taxpayer.

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

Is total separation from others worse than our current set up right now? Prisoners intermingle with each other and nearly all inmates join race-based gangs. It's the only way to stay alive, yet it turns those who still have hope for rehabilitation into hard core thugs and many will return. Solitary confinement would solve this, but as you stated it will lead to mental health issues.

Perhaps another solution is keeping prisoners within smaller groups. Only a dozen prisoners or so will ever have interactions with each other. That removes the problems of solitary confinement, but could help mitigate the gang problems.

I agree, but it would mean an extensive rebuilt of practically all prisons in the country. Perhaps it could be done cheaper, if the different small groups of prisoners are eating, working, bathing, and walking in the yard at different times of the day.

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January the 20th 2009. The day I started to respect America!