If we're not going to legalize drugs, we should at the very least decriminalize the "weaker" drugs such as marijuana. A good portion of people serving time in prison for marijuana possession were caught with very small amounts of it, nowhere near the amount needed to be deemed for distribution. So instead of fining the guy for having a couple ounces of weed for his personal use, we send him off to do time with hardened criminals. What sort of mental state do you think that person is going to be in when he gets out in a couple of years?

Here in Germany, the laws concerning drug control have additional paragraphes which allow the law enforcement to end investigations on minor violations (but you get a fine,anyway). While in the rich, southern states the police ignores this and gets tough on EVERY violation of the law, you can get away with the possession of minor amounts of weaker drugs in hardly every other german state - unless you are stoned and caught driving a vehicle (even a bycicle counts). You gotta be cooperative straight from the beginning, though, for the cops suggest the attorney what to do. Practically this is a phone call which the police officer makes immediately after he has caught you and secured the evidence. This phone call makes the difference between a house search and pre-trial confinement on the one side and "goodbye, have a nice day" and "check your mail in the next days" on the other.

EXCELLENT post....dead on

In the US state I live in possession of what's considered a personal amount of marijuana (normally under one-ounce [.0625K]) is subject to a citation similar to a traffic ticket where a fine is paid in lieu of a court appearance. This being a major growing area for marijuana (mostly sold in California) there's actually a widespread barter system of weed for local services throughout the year with an empathis in the late fall outdoor harvest season. The barter system places a 50-75% of street value on weed for exchange purposes.

All driving under the influence offenses, alcohol or drugs, are determined by field LE discretion. LE arrests for what's termed impaired driving have stood in court even with alcohol blood content levels below the .8 state/federal limit. Unless a repeat offender impaired drivers are not jailed. Their vehicles are impounded, they're taken to the jail, booked, cited with a court appearance and released due to jail overcrowding from lack of funding in a declining tax base. Penalties are severe for even first offenders, with substantial fines, mandatory jail time for those without the resources to secure the best legal counsel and loss of driving privileges.

Once again the social class distinction is in place with one's ability or lack of to afford the best legal representation determining whether or not incarceration results from the offense.

Cocaine, heroin and meth possession in what are considered personal user amounts are treated in the same manner due to the overcrowded jail circumstance. As someone else pointed out, alcohol and tobacco possession are legal in any quantity due to our selective moralist legislation.

What does any of that have to do with incarceration rates in a developed country where a third of those prisoners are locked up for 'dangerous drug' offenses with manufacturing, distribution and possession of alcohol and tobacco being perfectly legal?

it has a great deal to do with it...social drivers are extremely important....regards the alcohol tobacco blurb, inho, those are poor arguments...thats really got nothing to do with this...if you feel the laws and their application need changing , I urge you to contact your rep........


I agree to an extent, but that doesn’t not excuse anyone from not obeying the law as it is laid out...you are obliged to tailor your behavior according to such.......my post is a direct reference to the fact that in the last 2 decades, though major crimes appear to have dropped , the crimes you that you allude to, driving up the incarceration rates are, are generally “minor”, but inho, also point to a general lack of respect for what is.....this lack of respect is, driven as I said to a great extent by our educational system, media overall social message etc. That it appears to hit the lower levels of our populace is not surprising at all to me.

I am in a certain class..but I think I have a great deal to lose monetarily as well as general nuisances, especially, because its all avoidable. Obey the law. To say nothing of the time involved, court appearances, I would have to hire a lawyer, lose time at work etc. If I decided that the law was screwed and said the hell with it, I am chancing it, or simple irresponsibly and drove while intox. or carried drugs on my person....being stopped and arrested, car impounded etc..thats on ME....I care about the consequences...that’s why I don’t put myself in a position to be flayed by law enforcement...crying afterward that I am being screwed, is a strawman imho.


One would think that those who don’t have resources would be doubly on their guard knowing what would befall them if caught...the consequences you describe......they have less to lose as you point about, so why aren’t they smarter? Because this is not a conspiracy, just because the mass of folks who actually go to jail seem to be from the poorer sect of the pop. means that probably make poorer decisions,as compared wht their “richer” bretheren..... their court appointed lawyers may not be as sharp as mine, but in the end, just claiming that they go to jail because their lawyers suck, is a cop out of the argument ...first offenders if under the guideline limits regarding weight, level of intox. Etc will not land them in jail, the judges know they have limited space and judge based on that as well sans violence, if their hands are tied by set sentence guidelines, I say change the law then, but ..if someone has multiple offenses or is carrying a weight above the traffic infraction type, they deserve what they get.
And that’s their decision/responsibility, blaming it on the system, is a poor excuse.

Oh and the mandatory jail time even for repeat offenders has very little to do with their lawyer, their ability to make bail, and the judges judgment regards releasing on their own recognizance etc. are heavy factors....

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Not everyone is as perfect or mentally insulated as you claim to be for a variety of societal conditions, primarily economic status, which is a distinct social barrier in any of the US states I've resided in. Are you actually denying drug legalization would lower the incarceration rate and public expense? And you're unable to include alcohol and tobacco in the dangerous drug definitions based on ability to incapacitate physical and mental reactions?

As to your impression of available counsel quality, I suggest you associate on a personal and professional basis with some proficient lawyers who charge accordingly and then talk to a couple of overloaded beyond belief public defenders. It is a difference as stark as black and white.

I've been thinking that we tend to be rather uncreative when it comes to punishments, too. It's the same punishment (jail) for nearly every crime, which seems a bit odd, to me.

Certainly no jail time for non-violent,victimless crimes, like pot possession. I just can't see what practical purpose jail serves for things like that. Jailing someone for non-payment of child support doesn't seem to help anybody, either - certainly not the child.

Work programs, public service, ( a military stint )...we really should re-think what the purpose of simply warehousing everybody is serving. We need more creativity.

Let them opt for a two-year committment in the military, boot camp and all, to reduce their sentence...?

__________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

When the US was a prosperous creditor nation those social inequities could be easily swept under the rug, the out of sight out of mind throw money at it reaction. Now that those deep-seated problems are competing with more visibility such as state/muni governments no longer able to afford the costs of rising incarceration numbers due to fiscal challenges, I'm reading more and more 'they deserve what they get' opinions as general society, in most instances it's now the working public, once again attempts to bury the problems rather than address them.

Absolutely. The prison system is mostly wasted money. Simply warehousing people for a spell on the public's dime doesn't make a whole lot of sense,or serve much purpose (except, of course, for those violently mega-dangerous ones...)

Speaking generically, lots of these prisoners are young men who have never had any structure, rules or much positive influences in their lives. A spell in the military sounds like a great solution. At least we're getting something tangible out of them.

__________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Perfect? hardly..smart enough to know if I put my hand in a flame I'll get burned? yes. Some are smart enough, but don't care OR are not equipped with the thought processes that prompt them to perform a simple cost benefit analysis, in short, thinking of consequences......they make a decision one way or another even if its to disregard what may happen to them.......trotting out the strawman that, hey its “unfair”, ipso I need relief is a no where argument in my view. Everyone in jail is innocent or been screwed, ask them.

Primarily economic? I don't think so, there has always been the bottom 20%..always will be, I think it is, society as a whole, the MESSAGE, not based so much on economics....its societal in the lack respect for what is law as defined including simple right and wrong which is not something sppted now a days, the message is do as you feel, you are you, and are so very important sans those around you.... boundaries are made to be broken.......well have it at it, but don’t tug on my sleeve when you’re busted.

I have issues with the law, the third strike rule is ludicrous as it disallows judges from doing a case by case harm analysis, someones third strike may be robbing a bicycle, which did happen here in cali. ..he went away as a third strike offender for 25 years....nuts. His offense , as a stand alone event did not measure up to the punishment.

I agree that if you are rich you have the ability frame circumstances that allow you a much better chance to protect yourself from harsher punishment.....and some rich folks make a conscious decison I am sure based on that........but that’s totally beside the point Americano...its too late, they are in the system, richer, poorer, the defining equity is they have both broke the law...rich make stupid decisions too, the poor don’t have a huge edge, there’s just more of them....society and their own poor judgment driven by societies message to those ill equipped to think ahead, has put them there...correct that and this as an issue would disappear.....preventing the act is the battle....


Drug legalization is a whole other argument. The law is on the books, its not a secret. It is incumbent upon the citizen to obey them. IF there are issues with the law, it is again, incumbent on the citizenry to work to change them. Let the chips fall where they may.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

I'd prefer public works projects. That would provide a public return on the public investment and residual economic flow-through unavailable with military expenditures.

crime is down...the pop. is this large because sentences are longer due to changes in the 80/90's and a bit in the last 8 years....

question- if the sentences are longer and crime is down is their correlation between the 2? One wonders....

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Reported violent crime is down but something generates record numbers of new prisoners. Early release due to overcrowding is now a prime factor in prisoner time served calculations. Sooner or later society will have to admit jailing drunk drivers, driving with no insurance, drug offenders and non-payment of child support is not in its best interest. Sounds good to those with unwavering, emotional by the law opinions but it's a drain on society and creates even more problems while avoiding the responsibility of solutions.

Good topic.

I strongly favor legalization of drugs, since the war on drugs is an obvious scam anyways.

However, I am more interested in your statement about class distinction. Something which is never talked about. It's funny, when I go to a restaraunt near me, most fo the time the people who are waiters, waitresses and bartenders, are all white, but the cooks in the kitchen are mostly black. Why is that?