Visit the U.S. Politics Online Discussion Forum Archives!

Sponsored by:

U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum  

Bookmark Us! E-Mail DONATE NOW! Photo Gallery Document Archives Quiz! Register to Vote!!!
Go Back   U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum > Political Arenas > Judiciary

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
he [Blackstone] was not espousing a general method for interpreting legal texts
I thought Blackstone's work included a number of pages of comments concerning the rules regarding how to ascertain the meaning of a law.
Reply With Quote
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
he was providing HIS view on the generally understood meaning of the the English Law at the time.
What did he say was the generally understood meaning of the English law as it pertained to the interpretation of laws?
Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
he himself faithfully adhered to the aforementioned canons
Show us evidence that Blackstone adhered to the following canons, and any others, you believe should be used to interpret the original Constitution and the first ten amendments:

Judges should strive to apply laws based on what the language of the law in question would have been generally and reasonably understood to mean at the time it was passed.

If one meaning is more sensible given the specific context (for example, a few terms ago, the SCOTUS heard a case involving a criminal statute which permitted more severe sentencing if a gun were "used" in the commission of a crime. The case in question involved a person who had traded a gun for drugs, and was sentenced more harshly under the statute. The majority found that this was perfectly acceptable under the language of the statute. Scalia disented, arguing that in ordinary discourse, if someone ask if you "use a cane" (for example) they mean for its intended purpose, and not if you perhaps "use" your grandfather's antique cane as a decorative piece in your home. He thus dissented arguing that the word "use" in the statute reasonably meant the "use" of a gun for its intended purpose--as a weapon--and not as it was in this case, as a medium of exchange.

By the actions promulgated by those who passed the law. For example, if the question is whether a particular law drafted 200 years ago permits X and the text is vague or ambiguous; but, we see that immediately following passage of that law, the congress did the very thing we are questioning the permisability of, that is clear evidence in support of that interpretation under the canons. For example, does the First Amendment prohibit spending ANY Federal funding that in any way, shape, or form promotes or supports religion. Well, the fact that the post of Congressional Chaplain was not viewed as proscribed by the First Amendment belies any such absolutist and draconian understanding of it.

The "long standing traditions and customs society". If something has been done in an unbroken chain before, and since the passage of an ambiguous text, it should not be construed as proscribed by that text. For example, it is not reasonable to conclude that equal protection language which has been in place for over a century proscribes the failure to recognize gay marriage. It is clear from over 100 years of history that it was not understood to mean any such thing by those who wrote or ratified it.

General deference to the interpretation of other branches of ambiguities in the text. Where there are multiple reasonable interpretations, judges should generally defer to the interpretation of other branches so long as they are not unreasonable.
Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
NOTHING, This is not a METHOD for interpreting, but rather it is a very useful SOURCE for going about and determining that which the canons say is the object of textual interpretation, determining what the "plain meaning" of the text was at the time it was ratified.
Where do the canons you advocate the use of say Blackstone's great work is the source of the plain text of the U. S. Constitution?
Reply With Quote
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
The Canons of Construction...were FIRMLY established as the way for Judges to go about interpreting the meaning of legal texts.
How and when were they established?

Quote:
That was what lawyers and judges were TRAINED to do.
I thought they were trained in the common law, including the common law rules of construction, as the existed in the late 1780's; which is to say as the rules were presented by Blackstone in his famous work, because in the late 1780's Blackstone was just about the only source of common law that American lawyers and judges had access to....
Reply With Quote
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
They are by and large themselves nothing more than interpretation and presentation of the law as it was, and while they do from time to time make reference in substance to the canons, they are not in and of themselves a guide to "interpreting" anything other than what they themselves interpret.
Are you absolutely sure Blackstone's Commentaries don't contain rules for how to interpret legal instruments?

Quote:
As I said before, the reason they are helpful in interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is because it is one of the most authoritative and comprehensive guides to what various specific things in the Constitution which were not created de novo at the time of the drafting and ratification, but were lifted from English Law.
Are you absolutely and positively certain that Blackstone's Commentaries don't contain rules for how to interpret legal instruments?

Quote:
Blackstone is immensely helpful in determining what the "plain meaning" of the portions of the constitution drawn from the English Common Law were at the time of the ratification, they would be utterly useless in interpreting a statute written 10 years ago.
Are you totally and absolutely and positively certain that Blackstone's Commentaries don't contain rules for how to interpret legal instruments?
Reply With Quote
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
The power to engage in military actions in not exclusive to declarations of war, and the power to declare war was never limited to declarations against other sovereign states. The authority to acquire lands from foreign sovereigns was a firmly established object of treaties, thus the LA Purchase TREATY was without question an authorized power of the Federal Government under its treaty making/ratification powers.
Show us the words of the Constitution that you believe grant the government power to engage in military actions independent of formal declarations of war.

Quote:
How about this, YOU explain PRECISELY how Judges ARE supposed to go about determining what the meaning of a legal text is.
Can we narrow the issue to what rules and principles should be used to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time they made the Constitution?
Reply With Quote
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 5,022

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Mick, as I said, until you educate yourself, I see no further point in wasting my time with someone so clearly ignorant of legal and constitutional history who can offer up nothing of substance other than pointless and stupid questions that serve no purpose but to underscore your own ignorance and obtuseness.
__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Reply With Quote
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Mick, as I said, until you educate yourself, I see no further point in wasting my time with someone so clearly ignorant of legal and constitutional history who can offer up nothing of substance other than pointless and stupid questions that serve no purpose but to underscore your own ignorance and obtuseness.
Are you totally, completely, absolutely and positively certain that Blackstone's Commentaries don't contain rules for how to interpret legal instruments?
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
Reply With Quote
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
legal and constitutional history.
What did James Madison say, during the making of the Constitution, that might shed some light on the rules and principles that should be used to interpret the Constitution?
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
Reply With Quote
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 5,022

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Mick Jagger
What did James Madison say, during the making of the Constitution, that might shed some light on the rules and principles that should be used to interpret the Constitution?
Learn to read:

Quote:
Marcus1124:
Mick, as I said, until you educate yourself, I see no further point in wasting my time with someone so clearly ignorant of legal and constitutional history who can offer up nothing of substance other than pointless and stupid questions that serve no purpose but to underscore your own ignorance and obtuseness.
__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Reply With Quote
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Learn to read:
What did Alexander Hamilton say about the rules that should be used to interpret the Constitution, Little Mr. Junior Constitutional History Expert?
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
Reply With Quote
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 5,022

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
John Drake
I'm not saying you should ignore the Constitution by any means . I'm saying that the Constitution is meant to be a broad framework, and it exists within an even broader framework of the general and enlightened ethos of the time. (and what's that? which is why we need good judges)
Really, because for something meant to be a "broad framework" they were amazingly specific about a great many things in this document.

And even if you accept that it is intended as a "broad framework", that doesn't mean it is intended to expand and contract over time at the whim of judges. Absent an Amendment the "framework" should not be any more or less "broad" today than it was when it was written. If it was "broad" enough to leave certain questions of public policy to the elected branches then, it still leaves those same matters to the elected branches now. If it was constitutional to restrict abortion then, it is constitutional to do so now. If it was constitutional to execute those found guilty of rape them, it is constitutional to do so now.

In fact, one of the most intellectually dishonest arguments people make against originalism/textualism is that it is contrary to the need for a "flexible" constituion. The very rulings which take advantage of this spirit of "flexibility" themselves make our constitution LESS "flexibile". Prior to Roe v. Wade was the constitution more or less "flexibile" on the matter of abortion?

Quote:
John Drake
The FF were great men, but people back then also used to spend Sunday afternoons either watching tortured animals tear each other apart or poking sticks at the inmates in the local asylum, and that was perfectly alright to everyone. Times. Change.
Times change and so do laws, both statutory and constitutional, but changes to the law are only legitimately promulgated by the will of those who gave them effect in the first place, the people, through the acts of their democratically elected representatives, not by judicial disregard for the expressed will of the people.
__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Reply With Quote
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 248

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
What did James Madison say, during the making of the Constitution, that might shed some light on the rules and principles that should be used to interpret the Constitution?
Here's something James Madison said about "rules of construction" in 1799.
The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 [Farrand's Records, Volume 3]
CCLXXXIV. James Madison to Thomas Jefferson.1

[Note 1: 1 Hunt, Writings, of Madison, VI, 329--330.]

Feby 8, 1799.

The idea of publishing the Debates of the Convention ought to be well weighed before the expediency of it, in a public as well as personal view be decided on. Besides the intimate connection between them the whole volume ought to be examined with an eye to the use of which every part is susceptible. In the Despotism at present exercised over the rules of construction, and [illegible] reports of the proceedings that would perhaps be made out & mustered for the occasion, it is a problem what turn might be given to the impression on the public mind. But I shall be better able to form & explain my opinion by the time, which now approaches when I shall have the pleasure of seeing you. And you will have the advantage of looking into the sheets attentively before you finally make up your own.
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
Reply With Quote
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2008
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 5,022

   
Re: What is your view on appropirate Judicial Philosphy?

Quote:
Mick Jagger
Here's something James Madison said about "rules of construction" in 1799....
And? What do you think those rules he was referring to were? If you had any background in this area you would know it is the canons of construction to which he refers.

Blackstone is not a list of rules for HOW to interpret legal texts, it was a compilation of commentaries on what English Common Law WAS (and as such as an excellent source when engaging in the act of trying to determine what various terms in the U.S. Constitution which were lifted from English Common Law were understood to mean. That you can't grasp the distinction just underscores your lack of knowledge in this entire area.
__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google

Thread Tools
Display Modes

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0 Release Candidate 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
Copyright © 2000 - 2008 U.S. Politics Online