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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
Mick Jagger's Avatar
Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
Well it was originally put on the currency to separate us from the Communist heathens of the USSR
The Commies believe in civil authority over religion. When Congress assumed advisory authority over our duty to trust in God, it was actually a step in the direction of Communism.
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
I take it to mean that without religion a man resorts to violence, but I can prove that is not so. This is a topic for another thread, however.
The historical evidence indicates that the object was a declaration by the people, or at least most of the people, of their trust in God.
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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mtramm mtramm is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
The Commies believe in civil authority over religion. When Congress assumed advisory authority over our duty to trust in God, it was actually a step in the direction of Communism.
I was being sarcastic...
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
The historical evidence indicates that the object was a declaration by the people, or at least most of the people, of their trust in God.
I just read the transcript of the floor debate, and the Senators were talking about the foundation of freedom being "trust in God and a people under His guidance." The whole argument was in the context of God liberating us and separating us from the Communists.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
I just read the transcript of the floor debate, and the Senators were talking about the foundation of freedom being "trust in God and a people under His guidance." The whole argument was in the context of God liberating us and separating us from the Communists.
In that case its clearly an individuals perception based on a true desire to be better. I think the people settling this country saw more promise for a better life than what they left, faith in a better life is a strong motivator to strive for the best, without it we blindly pursue something no one can seem to define.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Mick Jagger
I thought you were a Little Mister Junior Know It All Constitutional History Expert who would know what the common law rules of construction were when the nation was founded and what the founders said about them.
Gee, I am merely posing to you the EXACT (verbatim as a matter of fact) your ignorant challenges to what others post.

I have already TOLD you what the common law ruls of construction were, you are just too friggin ignorant to accept it.

You asserted: "They meant for us to use the common law rules of construction to ascertain the meaning of the Constitution."

I merely asked you to meet the same standard of proof of your assertion that you have been demanding of others. Show us EXACTLY where the founders said that.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by AwareAndiCare View Post
In that case its clearly an individuals perception based on a true desire to be better.
Says you. How on Earth do you know? Perhaps it was motivated by a desire to gain political power. Perhaps this was just a way to grab power by lumping in those senators and Congress members who didn't vote for this bill in with the Communists, or as Communist sympathizers. This to me seemed a more effective method of knocking those candidates in close elections out of contention, than it was a statement of Congress a true desire to be better, whatever that means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwareAndiCare View Post
I think the people settling this country saw more promise for a better life than what they left, faith in a better life is a strong motivator to strive for the best, without it we blindly pursue something no one can seem to define.
What does this mean? I'm not sure whether I understand whether you mean religious "faith in a better life" or, just faith that life will be better in the future.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
The Commies believe in civil authority over religion. When Congress assumed advisory authority over our duty to trust in God, it was actually a step in the direction of Communism.
This I agree with. Dictating that we should put our trust in god is quite totalitarian.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
...when the Court, for whatever reason, revisits the actual text of the Constitution to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time they made the Constitution, it should use the common law "rules of construction", as prevailed at the time the Constitution was made.

I think that's what they do for the most part. The rules of construction however encompass many different methods of interpretation, and which rule of interpretation should be used is a large part of the debates that go on between justices within Supreme Court opinions.

For the most part, there is basic consensus as to the outline of the method of statutory or even constitutional interpreatation, but most of the debate is how one specific word should be interpreted given the Court's precedent. Sometimes there are discrepancies that make Scalia get his panties in a bunch and act like a 4 year old. I do appreciate some of his interpretations (like his opinions on the protections offered by the Fourth Amendment), however he doesn't follow his own rules in many instances anyway. For example, in the wetlands case in the 2005 term, instead of following the rules of construction to interpret the word "wetlands" in an administrative opinion, or the definition used by the Army Corps of Engineers for 50 years, Scalia decided to use a definition provided in the 1943 edition of Merriam Webster's English Dictionary.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
I just read the transcript of the floor debate, and the Senators were talking about the foundation of freedom being "trust in God and a people under His guidance." The whole argument was in the context of God liberating us and separating us from the Communists.
Where can I get the transcript?
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Gee, I am merely posing to you the EXACT (verbatim as a matter of fact) your ignorant challenges to what others post.

I have already TOLD you what the common law ruls of construction were, you are just too friggin ignorant to accept it.

You asserted: "They meant for us to use the common law rules of construction to ascertain the meaning of the Constitution."

I merely asked you to meet the same standard of proof of your assertion that you have been demanding of others. Show us EXACTLY where the founders said that.
I don't like to cast pearls before swine. However, if you convince me that you're really interested in the historical evidence that the lawmakers meant for us to use the rules of construction to interpret the Constitution, and if you ask me very nicely, I might help you find it.
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?

Last edited by Mick Jagger; 06-17-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Gee, I am merely posing to you the EXACT (verbatim as a matter of fact) your ignorant challenges to what others post.

I have already TOLD you what the common law ruls of construction were, you are just too friggin ignorant to accept it.

You asserted: "They meant for us to use the common law rules of construction to ascertain the meaning of the Constitution."

I merely asked you to meet the same standard of proof of your assertion that you have been demanding of others. Show us EXACTLY where the founders said that.
Man, talk about hate-mongers......
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
I think that's what they do for the most part. The rules of construction however encompass many different methods of interpretation, and which rule of interpretation should be used is a large part of the debates that go on between justices within Supreme Court opinions.
I don't think we're on the same page with regard to what the "rules of construction" were at the time the U. S. Constitution was made.

When I'm talking about the "well established universally accepted common law rules of construction as they prevailed in the late 1780's" I am referring to those presented starting on Page 59 of the Introduction to Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1750's, or thereabouts. Blackstone's Commentaries - Introduction
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?

Last edited by Mick Jagger; 06-17-2008 at 04:59 PM.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by mtramm View Post
For the most part, there is basic consensus as to the outline of the method of statutory or even constitutional interpreatation, but most of the debate is how one specific word should be interpreted given the Court's precedent.
I'm not up to date on interpretive methodologies used by the current Justices on the Supreme Court.

I'm well informed on the methods used by the Justices in cases having to do with separation of church and state. In my humble view, all of them make the mistake of trying to gather the meaning of the Constitution, as pertains to the relationship of government to religion, from an analysis of historical events.

Quote:
Sometimes there are discrepancies that make Scalia get his panties in a bunch and act like a 4 year old. I do appreciate some of his interpretations (like his opinions on the protections offered by the Fourth Amendment)
Cite me a few of his opinions related to the Fourth Amendment. I would like to read them.

Quote:
...however he doesn't follow his own rules in many instances anyway.
A lot of people say that. All I know is that in McCreary County v. ACLU he constructed a model of the American idea of the relationship of religion to the state without even considering the actual words of the Constitution.

Quote:
For example, in the wetlands case in the 2005 term, instead of following the rules of construction to interpret the word "wetlands" in an administrative opinion, or the definition used by the Army Corps of Engineers for 50 years, Scalia decided to use a definition provided in the 1943 edition of Merriam Webster's English Dictionary.
Interesting....Whats the style of that case?
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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mtramm mtramm is offline
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Re: First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and nonreligion

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Originally Posted by Mick Jagger View Post
Where can I get the transcript?
I just looked up "in god we trust" on google, and searched through the various links. I believe the page I found with links to transcripts is actually linked at the bottom of the Wikipedia page.
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