Okay I see your point and to an extent agree. The use of the SWIFT prgm. to attempt to pull financial recourses away from AQ etc. is an example of law enforcement technique, I agree. The application of wire tapping is a use of law enforcement technique and resources agreed.

BUT how do you reach these folks once you have IDed them? NOt every country as we have seen is amendable to requests for extradition etc. Their acts ala 911 are way beyond criminal as they continue to push for same, to practice terror against targets amongst military complexes/personnel and civilian populations. What happens when you find them?

The use of the military doesn’t have to involve invasion etc. as I said an posed an example. If you don’t agree with the name, well, beats me, what would you like to call it?

__________________

"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

Bis interimitur qui suis armis perit...

I'd like to post this as something to consider. Its the best sum up I have seen of the events without having to buy the book.
Its a tad lengthy but reads well I think.



An excerpt from Roosevelt's Secret War: FDR and World War II Espionage, Joseph E. Persico, 2001.


On June 19 [1942] the President received an excited call from Francis Biddle, his attorney general. Six days before, Biddle told the President, "at 1:30 A.M. an unarmed Coast Guard patrolman near Amagansett, Montauk Point, Long Island, discovered two men placing material in a hole they had dug; one of them covered the patrolman with a gun, gave him $260 and told him to keep his mouth shut. I shall, of course, keep you informed." As J. Edgar Hoover's nominal boss, Biddle later recalled the FBI chief's demeanor while describing the plan to track down the rest of the saboteurs: "His eyes were bright, his jaw set, excitement flickering around the edge of his nostrils," Biddle remembered. The question now was how much to tell the public. Hoover wanted no announcement that might alert the men still at large. The President agreed, and the press was, for the moment, frozen out of the story.

FDR's longstanding preoccupation with sabotage now seemed validated. Biddle admitted, "1 had a bad week trying to sleep as I thought of the possibilities. The saboteurs might have other caches hidden, and at any moment an explosion was possible." [Saboteur] Dasch had, in fact, revealed that, along with their transportation and industrial targets, the Pastorius mission was supposed to spread terror by placing firebombs in department stores and delayed-action explosives in hotels and in crowded railroad stations.

On June 27, ten days after the Kerling team landed in Florida, the President, then at Hyde Park, took another call from Biddie. Hoover's G-men had seven of the saboteurs in custody and were about to arrest the last one. Nearly $174,000 of their Abwehr stake had been seized. FDR responded with the habitual geniality that Biddle, a stiff Philadelphia Main Liner, envied. "Not enough, Francis," Roosevelt said. "Let's make real money out of them. Sell the rights to Barnum and Bailey for a million and a half --- the rights to take them around the country in lion cages at so much a head." Now the tale could be told, and in the ensuing publicity, Coast Guardsman Cullen became a national hero. Hoover played the capture of the ring as a case solved by the FBI, making no public mention of the fact that Dasch had turned himself in and squealed on his comrades.

Three days after all eight saboteurs were in custody, FDR sent Biddle a memo making clear his expectations. "The two Americans are guilty of treason," he told the attorney general. "I do not see how they can offer any adequate defense. . . it seems to me that the death penalty is almost obligatory." As for the six German citizens, "They were apprehended in civilian clothes. This is an absolute parallel of the Case of Major [John] Andre in the Revolution and of Nathan Hale. Both of these men were hanged." The President hammered home his point once more: "The death penalty is called for by usage and by the extreme gravity of the war aim and the very existence of our American govemment." Biddle had never quite overcome his awe in dealing with FDR. Still, the nation's chief law enforcement official was troubled, finding himself trapped between the President's questionable pressure and his own reverence for the law. The Germans had been apprehended so quickly, Biddle recognized, that "they had not committed any act of sabotage. Probably an indictment for attempted sabotage would not have been sustained in a civil court on the grounds that the preparations and landings were not close enough to the planned acts of sabotage to constitute attempt. If a man buys a pistol, intending murder, that is not an attempt at murder." In a civilian court the Germans might at best be convicted of conspiracy, which Biddle estimated would carry a maximum sentence of three years. This outcome, he knew, would never satisfy Roosevelt.

FDR essentially took charge of the case. He told Biddle that he wanted the eight agents tried, not in a civilian court, but by a military tribunal, which he himself would appoint. They had forfeited any right to a civilian trial, as Roosevelt put it, because "[t]hese men had penetrated battlelines strung on land along our two coasts and guarded on the sea by our destroyers, and were waging battle within our country." They fell under the Law of War. A military tribunal would be quick, not subject to the protracted appeals procedures of civilian courts. It would not be hog-tied by the criminal courts' exacting rules of evidence. It could impose the death sentence, not as the civil courts required, by a unanimous verdict, but by a two-thirds vote. A military tribunal offered the advantages and the assured outcome that the President wanted. A civilian court was out of the question. FDR told Biddle, "I want one thing clearly understood, Francis: I won't give them up . . . I won't hand them over to any United States Marshall armed with a writ of habeas corpus. Understand!" Averell Harriman, FDR's special envoy to Moscow, had once described Roosevelt's "Dutch jaw -- and when that Dutch jaw was set you couldn't move him." Biddle practically felt the jaw's thrust, and dutifully followed the President's instructions. Conviction should be simple, Biddle promised FDR, since "[t]he major violation of the Law of War is crossing behind the lines of a belligerent to commit hostile acts without being in uniform."

The British, early in the war, had imposed the traditional penalty on captured spies and saboteurs, execution. Seven arrested German agents were hanged with numerous others awaiting the gallows within months of the war's outbreak. Then, in 1940, a thirty-year-old Scottish major, energetic, articulate, imaginative Thomas A. "Tar" Robertson, assigned to MIS, proposed a new approach. What use to Britain were German spies moldering in anonymous graves? he asked his superiors. Instead, make an offer to them, turn or die. Thus was born the Double Cross, or XX, operation whereby most captured spies chose turning to dying. Some became double agents and sent false information back to Germany under British control. In other cases, British radiomen mastered "the fist," the distinctive sending style of these agents, and convincingly transmitted Double Cross fabrications to Germany. Double Cross was a rousing success. Only one German spy is believed to have reached Britain during the war without being caught. The alternative of turning the eight captured Germans never entered FDR's head. Their deaths were to serve notice to the Nazis of the certain fate of any other spies and saboteurs sent to America.

On July 2 the President announced that the eight accused would stand trial before a military commission composed of seven generals, and they would be charged with violating the eighty-first and eighty-second Articles of War dealing with espionage, sabotage, and conspiracy. Court-appointed lawyers for the defendants made a game effort to move the trial to a civilian court, taking the constitutional issue all the way to the Supreme Court, but the justices backed the legality of a military tribunal. Biddle himself was to prosecute, an unusual move, having a civilian serve as prosecutor in a military proceeding. But FDR was taking no chances. The Army's Judge Advocate General was rusty and had not tried a case for over twenty years. FDR wanted his own man before the bar.

On June 8 the prisoners, held in the District of Columbia jail, were shaved by prison barbers, lest they put the razor to their own wrists or throats, and hustled into two armored vans guarded by gun-toting military police. Nine Washington motorcycle patrolmen roared alongside, escorting the vans to the Department of Justice. Enterprising vendors soon were doing a thriving business selling ice cream and hot dogs to the crowds that gathered outside the department's iron gate every day to gawk at the enemy. The trial was held in Assembly Hall # 1 on the fifth floor of the Justice Department, the windows shrouded by black curtains. As the trial opened, Hoover, sitting next to Biddle, fed pages of evidence to the attorney general. During a recess, one of the defendants asked the presiding general for a cigarette. The general responded stuffily that Army regulations made no provision for such a request. A disgusted Hoover took out a pack of cigarettes and handed it to the German.

In twenty-six days it was over. All eight were sentenced to death. The generals sent their verdict to the President. Roosevelt, acting, in effect, as the court of last resort, confirmed six of the death sentences, but commuted Burger's sentence to life and Dasch's to thirty years for their willingness to betray their comrades. August 8 was set for the executions, which would take place in the electric chair on the third floor of the District of Columbia jail. Eight weeks had elapsed from the night the first saboteurs had landed on Long Island.

On execution day, FDR was at Shangri-la [now Camp David] , the presidential hideaway in western Maryland's Catoctin Mountains. The President liked to sit in the small screened porch playing solitaire or gazing by the hour out at the Catoctin Valley, lost in his private thoughts. This evening, he gathered his guests around him in the living room -- Sam Rosenman and his wife, Dorothy, Daisy Suckley, Grace Tully, poet Archibald MacLeish and his wife, Ada. The First Lady was tied up in New York. The President settled into an easy chair and seemed in unusually fine fettle. He commenced his ceremonial role, mixing the cocktails. He was conceded to make a fine martini and an old-fashioned, though lately he had become enamored of a drink made of gin and grapefruit juice, which most guests found vile. As he mixed, he swapped jests with Rosenman and MacLeish while Daisy snapped photos.

Once more Rosenman was impressed by FDR's gift for shedding the cares of office after hours, as if flipping a switch somewhere inside himself The President began reminiscing about his days in the governor's office in Albany where Rosenman had served as his legal counsel, recalling stories of appeals for clemency on the eve of executions. Sam marveled at FDR's memory, down to dates, places, offenses, and names of the condemned in a dozen New York capital cases. The President then segued into an Alexandre Dumas story about a barber who, during the 1870 siege of Paris, supplied delicious beef while thousands were starving. Gleefully, FDR related how a number of the barber's clients had turned up missing, and the "veal" was suspected of originating in the barber's chair.

What prompted FDR's black humor this evening went unspoken until Dorothy Rosenman raised the subject. The six condemned Nazi saboteurs had been electrocuted beginning at one minute past noon. By 1:04 P.M., the work was completed, an average of ten and a half minutes per man. One witness reported that they had gone to their deaths stunned, as if in a trance. Where, Mrs. Rosenman asked the President, would the bodies be buried? He had not yet decided, FDR answered. His only regret was that they had not been hanged. He then launched into a story about an elderly American woman who died while visiting Moscow and had accidentally been switched in a casket meant for a deceased Russian general who was shipped back to the States. When her family complained, the Russian government cabled back, "Suggest you close the casket and proceed with the funeral. Your grandmother was buried in the Kremlin with full military honors." The saboteurs were subsequently buried in a potter's field near Washington.

Was the evening of gallows humor Roosevelt's true mood or intended to mask the hard decisions he had had to make about six human lives? Mrs. Rosenman's firsthand account describes nothing but Roosevelt's humor and relaxed manner, but then, he was a consummate actor. In any case, the country was with him. Telegrams poured into the White House mail room. One read, "It's high time that we wake up here in this country and show the world we are not a bunch of mush hounds." It was signed, "Mother who has three loyal sons in the Army." The Victory Committee of German American Trade Unionists telegraphed the President, "We endorse the imposition of the death penalty on any saboteur or traitor. We know that no loyal German American need have the slightest fear providing he obeys the laws of the country." On Ellis Island, the execution of the six Germans was observed differently. Adolph G. Schickert and Erich Fittkau, Germans interned there, held a meeting of other internees. They announced the death of their countrymen, called for two minutes of silence, and then led the singing of the rousing Nazi anthem, the "Horst Wessel Lied."

__________________

"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

Bis interimitur qui suis armis perit...

Good post, Imperator. There really isn't any reasonable answer a liberal can give to it. The historical precedent of Roosevelt's actions with regard to the spies and traitors just demonstrates how far the left have tried to move the goal posts. What was good enough in 1942or 1862 or 1812 or 1779 is good enough today. What the democrats and other leftists are trying to do is change and dilute the culture of the country.

I am afraid you got my point a little backwards Tanngrisnir

The "stinkin pile of shit" comment was ment on the entire system of prisoner abuse, torture and general lawlessnes, that led to the miserable situation the American legal system is in today.

And we agree, that at least trying to make a legal criminal case out of it, definately is progress.

Of course it can not turn into nothing but another cangaroo court.

Where do you think they will be able to find a neutral jury?
Timbucto, perhaps

And I will ( almost ) promise to eat my very old hat, if their lawyers will be allowed to run any of their case on what happened in guantanamo.
There is no way in hell they are going to make that more public, that it already is.


Jen

Oh, I see. I apologize for having misconstrued your intent.

__________________
All things serve The Beam

No problem.

The military commissions you are mentioning, have little to do with the military tribunals/commissions you have today.

The writers of your constitution were writing about the 6. amendment, Habeas Corpus, bill of rights, speedy and fair trials and so on....

They were not writing about limbo loopholes in some far away black hole.

They were not writing about trials, specifically designed to give certain convictions.

They were not writing about using torture to get confessions.

To mention a few other things they werent writing about neither:

• The accused are not allowed access to all the evidence against them. The presiding officers are authorized to consider secret evidence the accused have no opportunity to refute.It may be possible for the commission to consider evidence that was extracted through coercive interrogation techniques before the enactment of the Detainee Treatment Act. However, legally the commission is restricted from considering any evidence extracted by torture, as defined by the Department of Defense.

• The Appointing Officer in overall charge of the commissions is sitting in on them. He is authorized to shut down any commission, without warning, and without explanationThe proceedings may be closed at the discretion of the Presiding Officer, so that secret information may be discussed by the commission.

• The accused are not permitted a free choice of attorneys, as they can only use military lawyers or those civilian attorneys eligible for the Secret.

• Because the accused are charged as unlawful combatants, former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld stated that an acquittal on all charges by the commission is no guarantee of a release.


Just heard some of the speech Eric Holder made about the trial in new york.

He actually said, that he would not have authorized this trial, if he wasn`t confident that the outcome would be succesfull.

On the other hand did he actually refuse to answer what would happen if the case was thrown out because of some legal technicality.

You may get a nasty suspicion, that their own homemade rules will then take over, to make sure they have a "fair" trial.

That was not the kind of justice the auther`s of your constitution had in mind when they wrote it.
And believe me, they are rotating in their graves, knowing very well that characters like George W. Bush, Dich Cheney, John Yoo, Gonzales, Feith, Rumsfeld and a host of others, for the last almost ten years, have been using their constitution as toilet paper.

Unfortunately it looks like it`s going to continue under Obama.

Your comment, please..

Jen

No problem. Having re-read it I see it might have given that impression

I would like to say, that it looked like the Obama administration and Erik Holder had come to the conclusion, that they would go after what was the right thing to do, and take a pricipal high ground.

But then they later completely ruined that illusion, when Eric Holden declared, that it was only because he was certain of the outcome, that he authorized this trial.
And by the way then refused to answer what would happen if the accused somehow got of on a legal technicality of a sort...

And after that, hypocracy complete took over, when he declared that five others would be send to a military commision.
I suppose their case was perhaps not a "slam dunk", so better not take any chances...

Jen

The constitution has been being used as toilet paper for a lot longer than that. Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the civil war. As a practical matter, the constitution hasn't been relevant since 1937.

__________________

He's come to save the day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94

I think quite a few American`s have a completely different view on that..

Jen

No doubt. I'm simply unable to recall any debate over any topic in recent (lets say the last 25 yrs, thats about as far back as I can remember personally) history where the Constitution was used by legislators to effectively shoot down a law, including ones which were blatantly unconstitutional, mainly because the general wellfare and necessary and proper clauses have been contorted into positions where they can mean damned near anything. The document is effectively meaningless.

__________________

He's come to save the day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94

There is a problem right at the start. You don't seem to know the purpose of US military tribunals. Care to talk about the purpose of military tribunals under the US law?

No one on my side of the argument is. I'm disappointed that you would stoop to the level of partisan agitprop. I would rather you tried to make legitimate arguments of your own

Its not possible to assign the thoughts you put in the Founders heads concerning these paragraphs as the detainee treatment act didn't exist then.

Let me ask you a question:

What position do you think Alexander Hamilton or Samuel Adams would take toward legal treatment of KSM or Bin Laden?

On your last point, as far as Eric Holder is concerned he was the person who arranged all the crooked pardons Bill Clinton was paid to sign just before he left office. I have nothing but contempt for Eric Holder.

Lincoln suspended habeus corpus for very good reasons. I never read decent rebuttle argument to his.

I agree with you that the Constitution hasn't meant much since in the 20th Century. I'd date its demise to 1917, myself.

I was simply citing Lincoln as demonstration that violating the Constitution is not a new trend. Whether Lincoln did it for "good" or "bad" reasons is irrelevant to the example, it's still a blatant violation of article 1, section 9 of the Constitution.

As to the most recent date of relevancy of the constitution, you could make many arguments on the topic, and I've heard dates as early as the first Roosevelt term (Teddy, not Franklin).

__________________

He's come to save the day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94

Our constitution means absolutely dick for all and any means.

I don't give a fuck who you are, if you got enough money or people supporting you its worth nothing more then the paper its printed on.

This is the real world oK?

BUT, its [Constitution] is still something to fall back on when others abuse it, a standard for a general purposes.

The only effective thing the Constitution is protecting us from is fucking totalitarianism.

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Sic Semper Tyrannis



[/b]the left is always wrong[b[



http://www.myspace.com/swoop187muzic

Just fucking wow.

__________________
All things serve The Beam