I see. I bet we have since learned from our mistakes.

I think that is difficult for us to determine. I mean, I am sure certain teams would be in country before hostilities started. And more would certainly follow once the war began. However, their missions would certainly vary. It could be anything; observation, assassination, sabotage, etc....

True enough. However, most teams would shift positions periodically, making it that much more difficult to zero in. Some teams would certainly be discovered, and then it would be a firefight followed by a chase. US team trying to make an extraction point, while Finnish forces trying to catch them.

We are talking about SpecOps here, correct? Not helo assaults into hot LZs? Because SpecOps insertions and extractions were conducted with far better results.

You do realize that those gunships can shoot back, right? I never heard of gunships being grounded in Iraq. While I was there, they were very active and very succesfull. Still are too.

We study motti-tactics in our service academies. Quite thoroughly too. Should you attempt to try them against us, you will find that we are not some simple Russian conscripts who had rifles thrown at them and then told which direction to march. You will find highly trained, and motivated troops who will not sit still and allow themselves to fall into those traps.

I agree, we will not see division on division battles. However, in those smaller scale battles, history has shown that an aggressive attitude usually wins out. We would hit you again and again, at different locations. Spreading your already thin forces out that much more.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Much of the US equipment used in the first Gulf War was never repainted. You may have been seeing surplus equipment originally intended to fight the Soviets, but then used in that war, and has since been sitting in storage.

Just a note, the XM8 program has been cancelled. Too much money.

The main gun on the M1A2, while being designed by Rheinmetall, is produced here in the States. We do not import it. The same would have been true for the XM8.

For the recored, I think the XM8 would have made a fine replacement for the M16. I was bummed when the program was cancelled.

I'll concede tanks (at least on par with their US and Brit counterparts), and barrel arty.

The current US attack submarines (Los Angeles, Virginia, and Seawolf classes) were designed specifically to hunt and destroy enemy submarines. It is a testiment to their design that they can be adapted into other roles.

Loud? Where did you get that? Our modern attack and missile boats are nigh undetectable. Of course, this debate can only go so far, since much about submarines (in whatever navy) is classified.

That is because nuclear boats are superior.

Ah ha, so the Germans focused on conventional subs not because they deemed them superior, but because of their doctrine, strategic realities, and field of operation.

True enough.

Quite true.

All of what you have said here is true. For the record, I rate the German army (when it comes to equipment) as the leader in Europe. The only think the modern German army really lacks is a strong esprit de corps, and fighting spirit. Though, that is something I really can't fault them too much on, on account of WW2. In Europe, I think the Brits still hold the monopoly on that.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Here, your troops should just scruffy themselves and should not talk at all. Might be able to pull it off even.

Any assassination would be to poke a wasp-nest. It simply does not happen here, and thus, it was outside job. Observation would be most likely, I think.

Difficulties come with the fact that areas which they have to use to be able to observe are in heavy usage. You'd be surprised how crowded certain forests are..
Those chases would most likely take place and weather the heko would reach the ex.point and make it out to sea, would determine the outcome of each race.

I know, but suddenly remembered Larry Thorne. Choppers, with all the firepower they carry, are highly fragile.

THey bring tremendous firepower, but chassis is slow and sluggish. One assault tank is able to bring it down, or even one AA-mG. Not to point out the obvious, but Iraqi are not exactly known for their training and marksmanship.

..unless cut off by various obstacles. There is a myriad of ways to halt even a bigger force, especially if they are relied to their heavy equipment and roads. Forest, though somewhat familiar to most of your troops, is our home.
In the continuous war, just as Allied were hitting Normady, Soviets attempted to annihilate us. Three armies, Red Guards, attempted to break us. It was the largest battle in the Nordics thusfar and not only were the Guards halted(not just petty -soviet- consripts) but in North Karelia One division was already surrounded and cut off in Motti-fashion.

This would be the case if there were numerous locations to try and advance, but as there are but few, our chances are vastly improved.

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En uneksi. I do not dream.

Wanna sell?

It is weird, no? Your forces are using very old desing as the most basic of all military hardware as many other NATO have new and improved assault rifles.

And in our mortar-system. I actually read somewhere(cannot recall where) that U.S. has invented a new Mortar system which surpasses all and any others. It was the Patria AMOS...
Selling know-how is not uncommon these days between Westerner-nations.

We had a thread about it here, Rakkasan actually handeled the rifle, If I recall correctly.

Brits are very proud of their Challenger II. It is among the best in the world today.

THey are Jack-of-all-trades? Those kind are usually mediocre in all fields.

And vastly more expensive. I am not sure weather they are superior in coastal regions.

Being able to field a flotilla of diesels seems more reasonable than one nucklear.

Germans have been cutting their military very strongly. Looking situations in the East, it might not be the best of moves.

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En uneksi. I do not dream.

.... oh my...I wonder how many BIG NUMBERS projects get cancled, delayed and reduced to small size procurements due to the drain of the Iraq War...
I read that the 30 Virginia Class subs are seriously delayed already... from getting 4 a year to 1 a year...

Well, the G36, is quite popular...
That's true... I meant the technology transfer rather than really importing crates full of rifles...
Same is actually true for most US Systems in service here... the old M109 is build with some differences in germany, the old old UH-1 also ( talk about old stuff"

Well, the very limited funds of the german military and the so called "Transformation" proccess caused some interessting projects to be cancled or changed... (I am not a fan of crazy US Spending but 1,5% is abit too less...especially considering the 10.000 troops abroad right now)

For example the new Infantery Fighting Vehicle, the Puma, is rather a compromise... it is a very good armoured vehicle I am sure, but they didn't develope it from scratch as planned...
The turret and cannon is quite inovative anyways


The Leo2 replacement got cancled... it got upgraded to A6 series...


The PzH 2000 survived these cuts at least

Well, US Attack subs and basicly all nuclear subs are big... the Virginia class is quite small, but event it is 4 times bigger than a Type 212... and about 17 times bigger than a Type 206.
Subs are harder to detect if they are small and if nothing leaves the boat (no sound, no heat, ....)

Of course a conventional Submarine is superior in shallow waters... simply because a nuclear submarine is inable to hide in them.... And b
A nuclear boat has it's advantages (especially before the fuel cell) I won't question that... they can travel long distances submerged,... but all advantages come with a prize... and in this case it's simply the size which makes detection simpler => worse skills at hiding


Well, Germany is leveling down from the Cold War mode.... but I think it's a quite good Idea to sell the Leo2 to european partners, why have 2000 in Germany if you can have them in Poland, Austria, Spain,..... and Finnland

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No one. The global nuclear arsenal is powerful enough to annihilate all of us.

In case you rule out the total destruction because the ones at power evade it out of self interest (ie to survive themselves), the rest of the world will win. You might be able to win against single countries, but not against the rest of the world. No way. Even if you might secure a military benefit, you will soon face a lack of resources, a lack of people and a revolt of people at home.

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"Der echte Wiener ist aus Schleim gemeisselt"
Christoph Waltz quoting Karl Kraus

Mutually Assured Destruction .

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What you don't know, won't hurt you nearly as bad, as what you think you know that ain't true.

All the military hardware in the world does little to change the fact that war is a life or death struggle between people. And people are very clever, and can adapt to use whatever is at hand.
Look at the problems the US is having in Iraq, now imagine attacking Finland, where most of the male population is in the military reserve, and are armed, where the defense is planned the materials required stored at dispersed locations, I cannot imagine the US doing better there than they are doing in Iraq, and the only thing they are accomplishing in Iraq, is the avoidance of outright defeat. And avoiding defeat is not victory, especially when the US public will only support a war effort for a short time, victory must come quickly or not at all.

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

The Baltic Sea looks like a man down on his knees with a giant hard on.

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January the 20th 2009. The day I started to respect America!

Thank you for pointing that out..

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I duck, therefore i cover.

There is a difference between peacekeeping (Iraq) and total war. If the U.S. didnt care about Finnish causalties and innocents, it would wipe that country away quite easily. The U.S. military has not been given the green light with all its toys....ever. Iraq got a taste of it with Shock and Awe.

If the US would atomize Finland, it should be prepared to say goodbye to Washington DC as well. Its not like Europeans would have no nukes that they could use as response to such an unbelievable criminal act as retaliation.

But thats a pure theoritical mind game anyway.

Iraq isn't however, calling what the US has done there "peace keeping" is already more than only cynicism.

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"Der echte Wiener ist aus Schleim gemeisselt"
Christoph Waltz quoting Karl Kraus

Just a curiosity, but I wonder what "The common foreign and security policy" would mean in practice if a EU country that isn't a NATO member would be attacked. I mean since EU defence relies on NATO and there isn't a EU army really to come to aid. So would such a country be in fact under the NATO protection without being an actual member?

hahahahahahaha

*laughs so hard his pirate hat falls off onto the deck*

this be the best thread ever....and there is so MUCH of it!

Anytime Hoss, anytime!

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January the 20th 2009. The day I started to respect America!