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Military Debriefing A forum devoted to discussion on military technology, strategy & tactics, international rivalries, and history.

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2009
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Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Air Force Shoots Down Runaway Drone Over Afghanistan


Quote:
A drone pilot's nightmare came true when operators lost control of an armed MQ-9 Reaper flying a combat mission over Afghanistan on Sunday. That led a manned U.S. aircraft to shoot down the unresponsive drone before it flew beyond the edge of Afghanistan airspace.

The U.S. Air Force stated that a manned aircraft took "proactive measures" to shoot down the Reaper, which ended up crashing into the side of a mountain. Reaper drones have typically engaged in hunter-killer missions over Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan by targeting enemies on the ground with Hellfire missiles.

More than one drone has fallen out of the sky over the past few days. Aviation Weekly noted that a smaller MQ-1 Predator crashed on September 11 at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada, and another Predator just crashed today in Iraq for reasons other than hostile fire.

But the Reaper incident in particular raises questions about the backup control systems over unmanned aerial systems, and what steps are available to prevent drones from falling into enemy hands when they go rogue.

Both the Reaper and Predator have a "zero out" function that permits operators to wipe their data remotely. Still, that might not work if the link between operator and drone goes dead.

Such "lost link" incidents actually represent common troubles for the two drone types. Predator pilots constantly update a set pattern for their drones, so that the plane will loiter in that pattern if it loses communication with its operator (which happens frequently). The drones are even programmed to automatically head toward home to reestablish contact if the link remains dead for too long.

If communications cannot be restored and the failsafe measures fail (as they appear to have here), current drones lack remote-kill or self-destruct mechanisms. Prior crashes or incidents have required ground forces to secure the area, or manned aircraft to destroy the damaged asset.

These issues have special relevance for today's U.S. Air Force, which has scrambled to reinvent itself and train thousands of pilots to keep up with the demand for unmanned missions. We're still far from fearing self-aware drones or machines running amok, but a "dumb" drone without adequate human control represents no less a worry for commanders.
That kind of puts the kabosh on the idea that large aircraft can be made unmanned and operate unsupervised by friendly manned aircraft. Make them much bigger and you either waste a lot of money at the inevitable point of failure, or risk all your fancy technology literally falling into enemy hands.
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Old 09-16-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
That kind of puts the kabosh on the idea that large aircraft can be made unmanned and operate unsupervised by friendly manned aircraft. Make them much bigger and you either waste a lot of money at the inevitable point of failure, or risk all your fancy technology literally falling into enemy hands.
Why does this put the kabosh on the idea? I don't really see anything here that can't be improved upon.
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Old 09-16-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Sorry to bear bad news, but the air force and defense contractors are moving increasingly toward unmanned aircraft and operations.

And I have to agree with Jefe that there's nothing that went wrong about the incident that can't be improved upon. In the same vein, the drawbacks you cite also apply to human-piloted aircraft.....except the additional complication of having a potential hostage/POW/interrogation/combat death situation to deal with.
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Old 09-17-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Air Force Shoots Down Runaway Drone Over Afghanistan




That kind of puts the kabosh on the idea that large aircraft can be made unmanned and operate unsupervised by friendly manned aircraft. Make them much bigger and you either waste a lot of money at the inevitable point of failure, or risk all your fancy technology literally falling into enemy hands.

Is the Taliban really that much up on modern tech that they could develop their own UMA?

And what real use would it be? I don't really think they could send one over here
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Old 09-17-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

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Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
Is the Taliban really that much up on modern tech that they could develop their own UMA?

And what real use would it be? I don't really think they could send one over here
Well, if they happen to capture Robert Downey Jr as well...

They might not know what to do with it themselves, but the Chinese, Iranians, or Russians would pay big money for the privilege of picking through the wreckage.

Particularly if its one of these...
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Old 09-17-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

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Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Well, if they happen to capture Robert Downey Jr as well...

They might not know what to do with it themselves, but the Chinese, Iranians, or Russians would pay big money for the privilege of picking through the wreckage.

Particularly if its one of these...
That's a strange looking island.
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Old 09-20-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

It looks like the unmanned french built spyplane that the idiotic danish military bought 40 of for $100 million, and then later sold to the canadian military for only $10 million, since they could never get them to fly. The canucks got them in the air quickly though, and got themselves a pretty good deal I guess.
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Old 09-20-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

The Canadians can get anything to work...
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"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
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Old 09-22-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBoyScout View Post
And I have to agree with Jefe that there's nothing that went wrong about the incident that can't be improved upon. In the same vein, the drawbacks you cite also apply to human-piloted aircraft.....except the additional complication of having a potential hostage/POW/interrogation/combat death situation to deal with.
Not particularly because the manned aircraft is much less likely to end up shot down.

Even if we took an immensely powerful supercomputer and built an airplane around it, the supercomputer would have an exceptionally hard time coming anywhere close to human capabilities to analyze the situation and come to a good tactical solution. Instead it would have to be programmed with rudimentary heuristics to simplify the situation. The problem with this approach is that those heuristics can be learned by the enemy and promptly exploited. Even then, the dreams of a plane which can pull more Gs than a trained fighter pilot and require no life support conveniently ignore the computers own required operating conditions including being supplied with copious amounts of electricity and the fact that electronics can break from high-gs as well.

To solve this you can use a remote control. But if you do that a manned enemy plane benefits from significantly improved reaction time, and the unmanned plane is extremely susceptible to being actively jammed, if not disrupted by any of the ordinary connection problems.

Personally I see the future for aviation not lying with computers replacing humans but with computers increasingly assisting humans in the cockpit with UAVs continuing to serve in simpler applications.
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Old 09-23-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Thought this was interesting... the Marines are considering the use of Kaman's K-Max helicopter for unmanned supply deliveries in Afghanistan.

Marines Tap Kaman For Robot Helicopter | Hartford Business

Quote:
Marines Tap Kaman For Robot Helicopter
By Howard French

Journal Inquirer
09/14/09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kaman Corp.’s single-seat K-Max helicopter won’t even need that one seat for a new demonstration project underwritten by the U.S. Marine Corps. for use in Afghanistan.

Under an $864,000 contract, the Helicopters Division of Kaman Aerospace Corp., based in Bloomfield, will demonstrate that an unmanned version of the K-Max has the ability to deliver cargo to troops in “extreme environments and at high altitudes,” according to Kaman Chairman and CEO Neal J. Keating.

Kaman is teaming with Maryland-based Lockheed Martin on the project, according to Keating’s contract announcement.

Kaman will award a subcontract to Lockheed Martin to integrate its unmanned aerial system into the K-Max, which Kaman calls an “aerial truck,” due to its use in forestry operations and other commercial applications.

The project will demonstrate the unmanned helicopter’s capability to deliver cargo over a round trip distance of 150 miles, Keating said. The Marine Corps’ overall objective is to move 20,000 pounds in a 24-hour period, he said.
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Old 09-23-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
Thought this was interesting... the Marines are considering the use of Kaman's K-Max helicopter for unmanned supply deliveries in Afghanistan.

Marines Tap Kaman For Robot Helicopter | Hartford Business


Quote:
A total of 38 K-1200 K-MAX helicopters are known to have been built. As of May 2008, 13 of these were unairworthy or have been written off in accidents.
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January 21, 2013: The End of an ERROR.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
---Benjamin Franklin
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2009
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Yeah... helicopters crash sometimes. Especially during extreme operations like logging or fire fighting.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

Maybe Predators and Reapers should fly in pairs like the F-16. I don't think this incident is a reason to stop using UAVs. They do a lot of good work.

If one did crash, the United States could put another UAV overhead to prevent hostile forces from retrieving classified information, while a recovery team is on its way.

http:/teddersrandomnotes.com/blog
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Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: Sarah Conner getting nervous...

The November 2009 issue of Esquire magazine has an article by Brian Mockenhaupt called, "We've Seen The Future and It's Unmanned."
Unmanned Aircraft - Future of Drone Aircraft and UAVs - Esquire

Here is a quote from the article: " An F-16 burns a thousand gallons of fuel an hour and can stay over a target for about an hour before it must swap out with another plane or refuel midair. A Predator carries a hundred gallons of fuel with which it can stay over a target for twenty-four hours." It is a very interesting story.

The Courageous Decision John Tedder's Random Notes
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