Army Gives Bad Discharges To PTSD Vets - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

EricOKC · #16 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Come on...is that really such a bad thing?

Absolutely it is a bad thing.

Steve · #17 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

All I saw was an op/ed piece written by some big, whining, liberal pussy.

Was there going to be a link to something worthwhile?

Mushroom · #18 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imperator

Do me a favor mushroom; take your logic, clear definitive explanations and service experience and blow it out your barracks bag.….

( oh and in my day showing up for PT with alcohol on your breath was, well de’ rigueur)

In the words of the great philosopher Steve Martin,

Well, EXCUSE me!

But you have to realize, the vast majority of civilians have no concept how either the UCMJ process works, or how the various discharges work. A lot actually have the belief that if you show up drunk you can get a dishonerable discharge. And that simply telling your NCO that he is wrong can get you locked up in the brig.

And BTW, back in my day it was the same way. Although I have never been a big drinker, there were plenty of times I showed up for morning PT with most of the formation smelling like a distillery. I remember doing the hill runs in Okinawa, with a good number of people leaving the "Technicolor Spew" along the side of the road. Back then, in the Marines the general rule was "as long as you can keep up, we let it slide".

However, the military of 2007 is not like the military of 1987. And most assuredly, the Army of 2009 is not like the Marines I knew back in 1989. Alcohol and drugs are treated much more firmly. Even showing up in my battery smelling of alcohol is enough to get the 1st Sergeant to send you to the MP station.

But I do understand what you mean. I am rather unique, in that I have seen the changes first hand over the years. Originally serving from 1983-1993, I came back in 2 years ago, and the changes were almost like culture shock.

We get classes to death. At least 2-4 times a year, we get day long lectures on drinking, drugs, suicide, cultural awareness, reckless driving, sexual harassment, and almost anything else you can think of. We even get a "Command Climate Survey" twice a year, where we tell the Army when we think the Army (or our command) is being unfair to us.

And I spent 10 years before, never seeing an Inspector General. I have seen him 3 times in just 2 years, because they constantly seem to want to come to the units and talk to the Soldiers, seeing where the command is messing up.

But other things have changed. The old "3 Strikes" rule about drugs is gone, replaced with a "0-1 strike" rule. Unit "beer bashes" are gone, replaced with "battery picnics". And since where I am at now we have a 3 drink per night limit, you almost never see anybody intoxicated.

ThorHammer · #19 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

In the words of the great philosopher Steve Martin,

Well, EXCUSE me!

But you have to realize, the vast majority of civilians have no concept how either the UCMJ process works, or how the various discharges work. A lot actually have the belief that if you show up drunk you can get a dishonerable discharge. And that simply telling your NCO that he is wrong can get you locked up in the brig.

And BTW, back in my day it was the same way. Although I have never been a big drinker, there were plenty of times I showed up for morning PT with most of the formation smelling like a distillery. I remember doing the hill runs in Okinawa, with a good number of people leaving the "Technicolor Spew" along the side of the road. Back then, in the Marines the general rule was "as long as you can keep up, we let it slide".

However, the military of 2007 is not like the military of 1987. And most assuredly, the Army of 2009 is not like the Marines I knew back in 1989. Alcohol and drugs are treated much more firmly. Even showing up in my battery smelling of alcohol is enough to get the 1st Sergeant to send you to the MP station.

But I do understand what you mean. I am rather unique, in that I have seen the changes first hand over the years. Originally serving from 1983-1993, I came back in 2 years ago, and the changes were almost like culture shock.

We get classes to death. At least 2-4 times a year, we get day long lectures on drinking, drugs, suicide, cultural awareness, reckless driving, sexual harassment, and almost anything else you can think of. We even get a "Command Climate Survey" twice a year, where we tell the Army when we think the Army (or our command) is being unfair to us.

And I spent 10 years before, never seeing an Inspector General. I have seen him 3 times in just 2 years, because they constantly seem to want to come to the units and talk to the Soldiers, seeing where the command is messing up.

But other things have changed. The old "3 Strikes" rule about drugs is gone, replaced with a "0-1 strike" rule. Unit "beer bashes" are gone, replaced with "battery picnics". And since where I am at now we have a 3 drink per night limit, you almost never see anybody intoxicated.

It is still not anywhere near that in the Marines. At least in 2000-2004. I never once saw an Inspector General, and we still had the mentality of "if you can keep up, we let it slide". At least when it comes to booze anyway. Drugs were a different matter. Of course, the Marines are always a bit different.

Mushroom · #20 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Come on...is that really such a bad thing?

Actually, in this case it was.

The individual was drunk, and causing a scene in a club back in Okinawa in 1990. The bar owners were about to call the Japanese Police, which is something nobody wants. This often results in the unit being "locked down" to base, and the JPs tend to enter swinging their clubs at anybody in the place.

The Lieutenant was one of the coolest I knew, and he convinced the bar owner to let him take the guy and go. But he did not want to go, and replied (paraphrased) "Fornicate you, SIR!", and attacked him.

At that point 3 other Marines tackled him and drug him back to base before the MPs or JPs got there. And on Monday morning he was getting the formal charges read to him.

If I remember right, he got a Battalion Grade Article 15. Reduced from Lance Corporal to Private, forfiture of 1/2 month pay for 2 months, and 60 days confinement to the barracks.

As for the guy that did the robbery, he is still in a hurt locker. Convicted of that crime, he was released to the Army, where he did several more crimes before finally being discharged. Last I heard he was sent back to California where he was facing trial for indecent exposure, drug possession, and resisting arrest.

Local Soldier Arrested In New Mexico - Bakersfield News Story - KERO Bakersfield

Mushroom · #21 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

It is still not anywhere near that in the Marines. At least in 2000-2004. I never once saw an Inspector General, and we still had the mentality of "if you can keep up, we let it slide". At least when it comes to booze anyway. Drugs were a different matter. Of course, the Marines are always a bit different.

In that I agree with you 100%.

I remember showing up for guard mount on November 11, and 2/3 of the platoon unable to stand without leaning on their buddy. And I can't think of a single time where somebody was given more then an ass-chewing for showing up drunk.

Heck, when I appeared at the formation for my flight to Panama in 1987, I could not even stand up. I had one buddy on each side carrying me to the bus, then up the stairs onto the airplane.

And I never saw an IG in the Marines. Not one. I never even heard of anybody calling the IG unless it was one of those typical "Marine Screwups" that was outside of the command's responsibility (one in particular I remember involved CHAMPUS refusing to cover a dependent's ultrasound bill, in another it was base housing refusing to perform repairs).

But the Army is very different, as I have discovered.

Mushroom · #22 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stapo

Totally agree and imho the worst military bashers are usually spoiled rich kids or wannabe junior business tycoons.

Thanks to their education (paided by daddy), they find nice words/excuses to hide the worst of their disdain, but it's always there.

And the Media Elite.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard some pansy-arsed actor or director going on about how the military is nothing but a bunch of killers, or that we blindly follow any orders. That we revel in killing, and have IQs about the size of our boots.

I see people like Brian DePalma, Tim Robbins, Sean Penn, Rob Reiner, Mike Farrell, Natalie Maines, Hanoi Jane, and Janeane Garofalo frequently make me sick. I have even seen Democrat politicians encourage children to stay in school, or they will be stuck joining the military. The image of the ignorant sadistic soldier who revels in death and torture is the one they seem to want to present to the world.

And I don't see those people supporting the Republican Party, nor espousing Conservative beliefs. Instead I see them at MoveOn.Org rallys, and calling Tea Party supporters "Racists". And I certainly have never seen any of them on a USO tour.

However, I did see the Saint Lewis Rams Cheerleaders a few weeks ago.

Rakkasan · #23 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

Mr. Drake, I do like the Kipling piece but you have Rak wrong. He served several years in the army, and recently to boot, so he knows of which he speaks on this subject more than most. Furthermore it's not the "right wing" that holds the military in disdain, it is the so-called elite. Those that feel themselves too good for military service. They are across the political spectrum.

thanks rich but you waste your time on the troll... him and goober make bashing soldiers a past time

and you are dead on it has dick to do with left or right but some just cant see anything other than blue and red and that is their down fall

Stapo · #24 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

And the Media Elite.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard some pansy-arsed actor or director going on about how the military is nothing but a bunch of killers, or that we blindly follow any orders. That we revel in killing, and have IQs about the size of our boots.

It's my believe that the media elite and others are dominated by people having an IQ about the size of their pumps.

Anyway in general these people regulary mix up their anger about certain policies/desicions with the soldiers, who have sworn to follow orders.

The military is a tool for politicans and as such can't be blamed for the way it is used.

Somehow that's too complicated for some to understand and due to their own selfrightious "morality", they direct their anger at soldiers instead of politicans.

It's a shame, but always has been that way and always will be that way.

Anyway what sucks the most in my opinion, is the sometimes expressed believe that the military attracts psychopathic/soziopathic personalities and that it's a good career field for such people.

Honestly I can't imagine anything being more dump and I'm sure you find a much higher percentage of sociopaths in politics or as CEOs in business, than amongst high up ranks in any military.

Militaries are just too big and slow as an organisation, the job of a military leader involves too much interpersonal/empathical leadership qualities, too much being in line with the structure and orders, for such self centered guys making it to the top.

Stapo · #25 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

It is still not anywhere near that in the Marines. At least in 2000-2004. I never once saw an Inspector General, and we still had the mentality of "if you can keep up, we let it slide". At least when it comes to booze anyway. Drugs were a different matter. Of course, the Marines are always a bit different.

Honestly I don't exactly remember (too much beer maybe

) how it was handled in the Bundeswehr.

I remember one guy being punished for something and then having to do kitchen duty for a few weeks. One of our NCO's had developed an alcohol problem above the , even for German standards, acceptable level and had to do 24/7 basic training "introduction" for nearly a year because of it, in the hope that all the work would make it impossible for him to drink/think too much (seemed to have worked), but apart from that nothing real has taken place.

In case 2/3 of the platoon would have shown up drunken a nice "Alcohol- vernichtungs-Lauf" ( alcohol- elimination march) probably would have been ordered, case closed.

Anyway as long as no illegal drugs were involved such things seemed to be handled "locally".

Probably also the time and event of too much drinking plays an important role; getting drunk (just like your comanding captain) in your favourite bar during carnival: acceptable; getting drunk before a Nato maneuver with old, high up US general farts present: a no go.

Just typical military; don't make the big asses feel the urge to shit on you and all will be fine.

AjaxPress · #26 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

Exactly the thought I had. Along with the phrase "Bush era program", making it sound like President Bush was responsible.

I serve with people with PTSD every day. And while some of them drink, I can't think of any with what I would call a "drinking problem". Ironically, the 3 we discharged prior to my deployment for alcohol abuse had never served a single day overseas.

Now, let me inject a little reality. The Army follows the guidelines of the Army Substance Abuse Program (ASAP), a program instituted in 1971. And it is covered under Army Regulation 600-85.

http://www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/r600_85.pdf

Now, does somebody who is seperated because of a drinking problem loose their benefits?

No.

In order to loose your VA benefits, you have to have either a Dishonerable, Bad Conduct, or Other Then Honerable discharge. And all of these require some severe misconduct on the part of the person.

I bet that if they actually sited individuals, we would find a lot more involved then what the wuthor claims. People convicted for drunk driving multiple times, people who comitted assaults while intoxicated, people who comitted crimes to support or hide their alcoholism. In short, the kind of scum that have always been discharged for unfavorable reasons.

One Private I worked with until earlier this year I will call "Private Kay". Now Private Kay was 19, and was constantly drinking. He showed up for morning PT 3 times smelling of alcohol. The first time, we chewed him out, and told him no second chances. The second time, we sent him to the MP station for a breath test and started UCMJ procedures. We also suggested he attend ASAP, which he refused.

A week later, he showed up drunk for a third time. This time he was forcebly enrolled in ASAP. A 1 month program, he was kicked out after one week, after returning to the clinic drunk.

Now within a period of 6 months, he was reduced from E-3 to E-1. 3 Article 15 procedures, and a fail from the rehab clinic. And what kind of discharge did he get?

General under Honorable Conditions. Which after 6 months can be upgraded to an Honorable Discharge.

Does he loose his GI benefits? Nope, he still is eligable for VA treatment. In fact, he was supposed to report to a VA center for further alcohol treatment, but I doubt he did.

****

In my 12 years of military service, I have seen a lot of scum break the law, from armed robbery to assault on a comissioned officer. I have never met anybody with a Dishonerable Discharge. I have met one that got a Bad Conduct Discharge (the armed robbery individual - who was on drugs and also comitted 3 assaults and went AWOL 3 times). I know maybe 15 that had Other Then Honorable, all for drug offenses.

There is a lot more to this story then is being said, and not much is being said at all. The author is simply trying to push a political agenda.

Which just shows that maybe the military doesn't have all that high of standards for conduct if people are being given all this hand holding and quadruple chances.

That shit wouldn't fly in the private sector.

LeatherneckPM · #27 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by AjaxPress

Which just shows that maybe the military doesn't have all that high of standards for conduct if people are being given all this hand holding and quadruple chances.

That shit wouldn't fly in the private sector.

You are honestly telling me that drugs are not tolerated in the private sector. Alex, on what planet do you live? That is a crock.

One more thing.... hardly anyone in the private sector gets shot at during their normal working day. Can't really compares the ordinary joes with the extraordinary individuals that are the US Miltary.

LeatherneckPM · #28 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

It is still not anywhere near that in the Marines. At least in 2000-2004. I never once saw an Inspector General, and we still had the mentality of "if you can keep up, we let it slide". At least when it comes to booze anyway. Drugs were a different matter. Of course, the Marines are always a bit different.

Some things don't change. This is one. As long as there is no girlie whining, alcohol is not a problem. Show up high and you're history.

Richyrich03867 · #29 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by AjaxPress

Which just shows that maybe the military doesn't have all that high of standards for conduct if people are being given all this hand holding and quadruple chances.

That shit wouldn't fly in the private sector.

Ajax, in the private sector if you pull this crap the worst that happens is you get fired. In the military, you get thrown in jail. You can't really compare the two.

CYDdharta · #30 (**permalink**) 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

Ajax, in the private sector if you pull this crap the worst that happens is you get fired. In the military, you get thrown in jail. You can't really compare the two.

If a service member has done something bad enough to warrant jail time, he'll also likely be kicked out with a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge which will follow them throughout their civilian life.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode