Army Gives Bad Discharges To PTSD Vets - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

CDavidNeely · #1 (**permalink**) 09-28-2009

Greetings and Felicitations,

Its really sad. It should really piss you off.

Army Gives Bad Discharges to Thousands of PTSD Vets - Salem-News.Com

Quote:

It all began as a Bush era program, promoted by Dr. Sally Satel, the famed "PTSD denialist" putting thousands of soldiers at risk and pushing hundreds to suicide.

Thousands of veterans lost all benefits, GI Bill, medical care and more through Army discharge scam, part of Neo-con "cost saving program"

Quote:

The basis of the Army policy is the Dr. Sally Satel "theory" that PTSD does not exist and all vets are fakers. Her beliefs, fringe "neo-con medicine" comes from a theory that soldiers and veterans are part of a non-productive social class that taxes a nations economic health as soon as they leave a combat zone. The end analysis supports the supposition that a disabled veteran and an illegal alien on welfare contribute exactly the same to the overall welfare of society.

Quote:

Gordon Duff is a Marine combat veteran and a regular contributor to Veterans Today. He specializes in political and social issues. You can see a large collection of Gordon's published articles at this link: Staff Writers : Veterans Today - News for U.S. Military Veterans Jobs, VA Benefits, Home Loans, Hospitals & Administration

Sincerely Yours,
C. David Neely

Disillusioned_1 · #2 (**permalink**) 09-28-2009

It does piss me off. The government seems to enjoy fucking over our soldiers almost as much as it loves to send them to unnecessary wars.

ThorHammer · #3 (**permalink**) 09-28-2009

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind. Neo-con this, neo-con that. He lost me there.

Mushroom · #4 (**permalink**) 09-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind. Neo-con this, neo-con that. He lost me there.

Exactly the thought I had. Along with the phrase "Bush era program", making it sound like President Bush was responsible.

I serve with people with PTSD every day. And while some of them drink, I can't think of any with what I would call a "drinking problem". Ironically, the 3 we discharged prior to my deployment for alcohol abuse had never served a single day overseas.

Now, let me inject a little reality. The Army follows the guidelines of the Army Substance Abuse Program (ASAP), a program instituted in 1971. And it is covered under Army Regulation 600-85.

http://www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/r600_85.pdf

Now, does somebody who is seperated because of a drinking problem loose their benefits?

No.

In order to loose your VA benefits, you have to have either a Dishonerable, Bad Conduct, or Other Then Honerable discharge. And all of these require some severe misconduct on the part of the person.

I bet that if they actually sited individuals, we would find a lot more involved then what the wuthor claims. People convicted for drunk driving multiple times, people who comitted assaults while intoxicated, people who comitted crimes to support or hide their alcoholism. In short, the kind of scum that have always been discharged for unfavorable reasons.

One Private I worked with until earlier this year I will call "Private Kay". Now Private Kay was 19, and was constantly drinking. He showed up for morning PT 3 times smelling of alcohol. The first time, we chewed him out, and told him no second chances. The second time, we sent him to the MP station for a breath test and started UCMJ procedures. We also suggested he attend ASAP, which he refused.

A week later, he showed up drunk for a third time. This time he was forcebly enrolled in ASAP. A 1 month program, he was kicked out after one week, after returning to the clinic drunk.

Now within a period of 6 months, he was reduced from E-3 to E-1. 3 Article 15 procedures, and a fail from the rehab clinic. And what kind of discharge did he get?

General under Honorable Conditions. Which after 6 months can be upgraded to an Honorable Discharge.

Does he loose his GI benefits? Nope, he still is eligable for VA treatment. In fact, he was supposed to report to a VA center for further alcohol treatment, but I doubt he did.

****

In my 12 years of military service, I have seen a lot of scum break the law, from armed robbery to assault on a comissioned officer. I have never met anybody with a Dishonerable Discharge. I have met one that got a Bad Conduct Discharge (the armed robbery individual - who was on drugs and also comitted 3 assaults and went AWOL 3 times). I know maybe 15 that had Other Then Honorable, all for drug offenses.

There is a lot more to this story then is being said, and not much is being said at all. The author is simply trying to push a political agenda.

Rakkasan · #5 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

Exactly the thought I had. Along with the phrase "Bush era program", making it sound like President Bush was responsible.

I serve with people with PTSD every day. And while some of them drink, I can't think of any with what I would call a "drinking problem". Ironically, the 3 we discharged prior to my deployment for alcohol abuse had never served a single day overseas.

Now, let me inject a little reality. The Army follows the guidelines of the Army Substance Abuse Program (ASAP), a program instituted in 1971. And it is covered under Army Regulation 600-85.

http://www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/r600_85.pdf

Now, does somebody who is seperated because of a drinking problem loose their benefits?

No.

In order to loose your VA benefits, you have to have either a Dishonerable, Bad Conduct, or Other Then Honerable discharge. And all of these require some severe misconduct on the part of the person.

I bet that if they actually sited individuals, we would find a lot more involved then what the wuthor claims. People convicted for drunk driving multiple times, people who comitted assaults while intoxicated, people who comitted crimes to support or hide their alcoholism. In short, the kind of scum that have always been discharged for unfavorable reasons.

One Private I worked with until earlier this year I will call "Private Kay". Now Private Kay was 19, and was constantly drinking. He showed up for morning PT 3 times smelling of alcohol. The first time, we chewed him out, and told him no second chances. The second time, we sent him to the MP station for a breath test and started UCMJ procedures. We also suggested he attend ASAP, which he refused.

A week later, he showed up drunk for a third time. This time he was forcebly enrolled in ASAP. A 1 month program, he was kicked out after one week, after returning to the clinic drunk.

Now within a period of 6 months, he was reduced from E-3 to E-1. 3 Article 15 procedures, and a fail from the rehab clinic. And what kind of discharge did he get?

General under Honorable Conditions. Which after 6 months can be upgraded to an Honorable Discharge.

Does he loose his GI benefits? Nope, he still is eligable for VA treatment. In fact, he was supposed to report to a VA center for further alcohol treatment, but I doubt he did.

****

In my 12 years of military service, I have seen a lot of scum break the law, from armed robbery to assault on a comissioned officer. I have never met anybody with a Dishonerable Discharge. I have met one that got a Bad Conduct Discharge (the armed robbery individual - who was on drugs and also comitted 3 assaults and went AWOL 3 times). I know maybe 15 that had Other Then Honorable, all for drug offenses.

There is a lot more to this story then is being said, and not much is being said at all. The author is simply trying to push a political agenda.

great post, the ignorance on this board due to post they read on huffington or moveon or some other military hating board is epic.

Thanks for spelling it out to those who have no clue

welcome to the board BTW

Thematic-Device · #6 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

...I know maybe 15 that had Other Then Honorable, all for drug offenses...

Simple possession or are we talking distribution?

ThorHammer · #7 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thematic-Device

Simple possession or are we talking distribution?

Odds are if they were simply discharged it was possession.

Richyrich03867 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Seems like things have not changed - back when I was in, in the early 80s', you never saw anybody with a BCD, becasue they were in Leavenworth for murder. Worst I ever saw was a general discharge, guys caught with lots of drugs.

John Drake · #9 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakkasan

great post, the ignorance on this board due to post they read on huffington or moveon or some other military hating board is epic.

Thanks for spelling it out to those who have no clue

welcome to the board BTW

Yeh, right. Your cousin's brother's friend was the World's Biggest Wino and career militiary anyhow, so the guy writiing the article didn't genuflect to the Bush Altar properly and once again the chickenhawks can do no wrong.

Bullshit. If anyone fucks over the military rank and file more consistently than the right wing in this country I've never heard of them. Kipling pegged your sort better than I'll ever even think of doing.

Quote:

Tommy
Author: Rudyard Kipling

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

-

________________________________________________

Richyrich03867 · #10 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Yeh, right. Your cousin's brother's friend was the World's Biggest Wino and career militiary anyhow, so the guy writiing the article didn't genuflect to the Bush Altar properly and once again the chickenhawks can do no wrong.

Bullshit. If anyone fucks over the military rank and file more consistently than the right wing in this country I've never heard of them. Kipling pegged your sort better than I'll ever even think of doing.

Mr. Drake, I do like the Kipling piece but you have Rak wrong. He served several years in the army, and recently to boot, so he knows of which he speaks on this subject more than most. Furthermore it's not the "right wing" that holds the military in disdain, it is the so-called elite. Those that feel themselves too good for military service. They are across the political spectrum.

ThorHammer · #11 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Yeh, right. Your cousin's brother's friend was the World's Biggest Wino and career militiary anyhow, so the guy writiing the article didn't genuflect to the Bush Altar properly and once again the chickenhawks can do no wrong.

Bullshit. If anyone fucks over the military rank and file more consistently than the right wing in this country I've never heard of them. Kipling pegged your sort better than I'll ever even think of doing.

You just don't get it, do you?

Stapo · #12 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

Mr. Drake, I do like the Kipling piece but you have Rak wrong. He served several years in the army, and recently to boot, so he knows of which he speaks on this subject more than most. Furthermore it's not the "right wing" that holds the military in disdain, it is the so-called elite. Those that feel themselves too good for military service. They are across the political spectrum.

Totally agree and imho the worst military bashers are usually spoiled rich kids or wannabe junior business tycoons.

Thanks to their education (paided by daddy), they find nice words/excuses to hide the worst of their disdain, but it's always there.

Imperator · #13 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

Exactly the thought I had. Along with the phrase "Bush era program", making it sound like President Bush was responsible.

I serve with people with PTSD every day. And while some of them drink, I can't think of any with what I would call a "drinking problem". Ironically, the 3 we discharged prior to my deployment for alcohol abuse had never served a single day overseas.

Now, let me inject a little reality. The Army follows the guidelines of the Army Substance Abuse Program (ASAP), a program instituted in 1971. And it is covered under Army Regulation 600-85.

http://www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/r600_85.pdf

Now, does somebody who is seperated because of a drinking problem loose their benefits?

No.

In order to loose your VA benefits, you have to have either a Dishonerable, Bad Conduct, or Other Then Honerable discharge. And all of these require some severe misconduct on the part of the person.

I bet that if they actually sited individuals, we would find a lot more involved then what the wuthor claims. People convicted for drunk driving multiple times, people who comitted assaults while intoxicated, people who comitted crimes to support or hide their alcoholism. In short, the kind of scum that have always been discharged for unfavorable reasons.

One Private I worked with until earlier this year I will call "Private Kay". Now Private Kay was 19, and was constantly drinking. He showed up for morning PT 3 times smelling of alcohol. The first time, we chewed him out, and told him no second chances. The second time, we sent him to the MP station for a breath test and started UCMJ procedures. We also suggested he attend ASAP, which he refused.

A week later, he showed up drunk for a third time. This time he was forcebly enrolled in ASAP. A 1 month program, he was kicked out after one week, after returning to the clinic drunk.

Now within a period of 6 months, he was reduced from E-3 to E-1. 3 Article 15 procedures, and a fail from the rehab clinic. And what kind of discharge did he get?

General under Honorable Conditions. Which after 6 months can be upgraded to an Honorable Discharge.

Does he loose his GI benefits? Nope, he still is eligable for VA treatment. In fact, he was supposed to report to a VA center for further alcohol treatment, but I doubt he did.

****

In my 12 years of military service, I have seen a lot of scum break the law, from armed robbery to assault on a comissioned officer. I have never met anybody with a Dishonerable Discharge. I have met one that got a Bad Conduct Discharge (the armed robbery individual - who was on drugs and also comitted 3 assaults and went AWOL 3 times). I know maybe 15 that had Other Then Honorable, all for drug offenses.

There is a lot more to this story then is being said, and not much is being said at all. The author is simply trying to push a political agenda.

Do me a favor mushroom; take your logic, clear definitive explanations and service experience and blow it out your barracks bag.….

( oh and in my day showing up for PT with alcohol on your breath was, well de’ rigueur)

Thematic-Device · #14 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Odds are if they were simply discharged it was possession.

I can see a problem there if a person was self-medicating as a result of their PTSD. It would be a reasonable condition to add for as a mitigating factor.