Thread: An interesting twist in the UC Davis pepper spray incident

Originally Posted by wooyarn

I know all about permits and such. I just think it's sad that some Americans are so willing to assume a submissive posture just because some politician snaps their fingers. That's not the America I spent 25 years of my life serving.
That's not the America our Founding Fathers started.

And to be honest, being from one of the Greatest cities in the south, I'm surprised you'd allow some politician to tell you when,where,and how you could do as you wanted.

It's not about anyone telling me anything as much as it's about common sense and courtesy. Should abortion clinic protesters be allowed to block entrances and harass clients? Should protesters be allowed to block downtown traffic during rush hour? Should protesters be allowed to harass families of deceased military men? Why should a protesters rights be more important than non-protesters?

As for being from one of the greatest cities, since I've never said where I live, I assume you believe that I'm from New Orleans and thank God, I'm not. Although it's only about 20 minutes across the lake from me, it's a whole other world than what I grew up in.

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

It's not about anyone telling me anything as much as it's about common sense and courtesy. Should abortion clinic protesters be allowed to block entrances and harass clients?

Abortion clinic protesters block the entrrances all the time. They also harass, threaten and assault the employees, bomb the clinics, and even murder a doctor in one instance. Yet you don't see them being brutally assaulted with dangerous chemical weapons by the police.

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

Abortion clinic protesters block the entrrances all the time. They also harass, threaten and assault the employees, bomb the clinics, and even murder a doctor in one instance. Yet you don't see them being brutally assaulted with dangerous chemical weapons by the police.

So if they did to the students what the officers did here to these protesters, you'd be okay with it?

In Forrester v. City of San Diego police confronted several antiabortion demonstrations.5 Protesters converged upon medical buildings, blocked entrances, filled stairwells and corridors, and prevented employees and patients from entering. When police attempted to remove them, the demonstrators passively resisted by remaining seated, refusing to move, and refusing to bear weight.

Before each arrest, the officers warned the demonstrators that they would be subject to pain compliance measures if they did not move, that such measures would hurt, and that they could reduce the pain by standing up, eliminating the tension on their wrists and arms. The officers then forcibly moved the arrestees by tightening police nunchaku, commonly known as "nunchuks," around their wrists until they stood up and walked. All arrestees complained of varying degrees of injury to their hands and arms, including bruises, a pinched nerve, and one broken wrist.

The Forrester court held that substantial evidence supported a jury verdict for the police and the city under the Graham reasonableness standard. First, the force consisted only of physical pressure administered on the demonstrators' limbs in increasing degrees, resulting in pain.

Second, although many of these crimes were misdemeanors, the city had a significant interest in preventing organized lawlessness. The police were justifiably worried about the risk of injury to the medical staff, patients of the clinic, and other protesters.

Third, police officers are not required to use the least intrusive degree of force possible. Each officer had the discretion to use force or not and, if deciding to do so, how much force to apply.

After the demonstrators ignored pleas to desist and warnings regarding pain compliance techniques, the officers used minimal and controlled force in a manner designed to limit injuries to all involved.

Police Chief Magazine - View Article

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

It's not about anyone telling me anything as much as it's about common sense and courtesy. Should abortion clinic protesters be allowed to block entrances and harass clients? Should protesters be allowed to block downtown traffic during rush hour? Should protesters be allowed to harass families of deceased military men? Why should a protesters rights be more important than non-protesters?

As for being from one of the greatest cities, since I've never said where I live, I assume you believe that I'm from New Orleans and thank God, I'm not. Although it's only about 20 minutes across the lake from me, it's a whole other world than what I grew up in.

I have no problem with people protesting any of those, I may not agree with some of it but it is their right to do so. They just need to be aware of what could happen if they get out of control. I'm a member of the Patriot Guard and have rode shotgun at 87 funerals, only ran into phelps and his idiots twice. We simply put ourselves between them and the families, the louder they yelled the louder we sang and drowned them out. They generally leave when they hear a bunch of bikes headed their way. It may be the 25 years I served in the Military, but I have a real problem when the Gov. tells people when,where, and how they can protest. I consider it one of our basic freedoms to protest our Gov.

I know you live in ... and yes I was talking about New Orleans. The last time I was there was in 72 so I imagine it's changed a lot since then. I used to go there 2 or 3 times a year when I was growing up just to listen to the music and party. It kinda broke my heart when Katrina hit and destroyed all that history.

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

So if they did to the students what the officers did here to these protesters, you'd be okay with it?


Police Chief Magazine - View Article

I don't really see a problem with that. Had they done that the students could have decided how much pain they wanted to put up with instead of having it decided for them..
There is one difference, the students were in a protest zone on a public campus the abortion clinic protesters were in a private building. But the same force could have been used.

Originally Posted by Jefe

lol.. I literally only read half of your previous post, and didn't finish reading this last one. You're wasting my time.

Yes, I imagine coming up with wild exaggerations must take up a lot of time.

It might be closer to the truth then you're willing to go but it could be cool if you worked in an angle on how the storm troopers rode in on dragons in your next fictitious account of what took place on the UC Davis campus. I'm sure you can work the Koch brothers too but I'll let you make the final details.

Originally Posted by wooyarn

I have no problem with people protesting any of those, I may not agree with some of it but it is their right to do so. They just need to be aware of what could happen if they get out of control. I'm a member of the Patriot Guard and have rode shotgun at 87 funerals, only ran into phelps and his idiots twice. We simply put ourselves between them and the families, the louder they yelled the louder we sang and drowned them out. They generally leave when they hear a bunch of bikes headed their way. It may be the 25 years I served in the Military, but I have a real problem when the Gov. tells people when,where, and how they can protest. I consider it one of our basic freedoms to protest our Gov.

I know you live in ... and yes I was talking about New Orleans. The last time I was there was in 72 so I imagine it's changed a lot since then. I used to go there 2 or 3 times a year when I was growing up just to listen to the music and party. It kinda broke my heart when Katrina hit and destroyed all that history.

I have no problem with people peacefully protesting and I participated in my first protest while still in grade school. I do, however, have a problem with protesters who harass people, block the right of way, etc. Sometimes there's a fine line between protesting and being an ass so the police have to step in. If the protesters then defy the police, I'm all for the police using force to remove them.

As to New Orleans changing, the French Quarter wasn't as badly affected by the storm but while it use to be fairly safe to go to the city as long as you staying in the Quarter, it's not so anymore. Recently, an optometrist from my town was killed in a mugging on Dauphine Street which is a block off of Bourbon Street and unfortunately, crime there is becoming more and more common.

Originally Posted by wooyarn

There is one difference, the students were in a protest zone on a public campus the abortion clinic protesters were in a private building.

You make it sound like they were in some magical place where the laws cease to exist.

Public property just means that it is used by some sort of municipality, etc. for public services. That doesn't make it some sort of lawless parcel of land you are free to treat as your own. Pitching a tent on UC Davis' campus without permission is no more legal than attempting to vinyl side the White House. Administrators graciously allowed protesters use of the location then changed their mind when protesters started pitching tents. Once that happened they were trespassing and it is no different then if they had been standing in an abortion clinic's lobby.

Originally Posted by Jefe

Now, can you honestly say that you would be in favor of the police treating Tea Party protesters in the same manner that these OWS protesters have been treated? Now go ahead and and "feign support" of the cops in either case, so I can call you a bullshitter. I highly doubt you're as consistent as you'd like to think you are.. and I'd appreciate it if you quit saying I'm dishonest, because it's really starting to piss me off. You're fairly new here, and you don't know jack shit about me, okay? I don't know who you think I am, but I'm not part of your little black and white partisan world, where only liberals and conservatives exist.

BTW, do you know why the cops never pepper sprayed any of those annoying Tea Party protesters at town hall meetings and other public events? Because Tea Party protesters have guns, and the cops know it.

Well, the TP's were not breaking the law.

So you are comparing apples/oranges.

Do the campus police dictate the price of tuition?

If not, then aren't the protesters barking up the wrong tree?

Could this be a case of the 1% spoiled brat privileged class of students just picking on the common honest hard working peace officers?

Originally Posted by lutherf

Threatened by a guy carrying an AR without a magazine and with a bible in his hand? Not likely.

Jason, just an FYI, some of us LIKE guns and seeing folks who also seem to have the same interest isn't really that threatening at all. Again, the danger comes with intent, not accessories.

Alright, so you're saying the intent to sit down on public space and lock arms peacefully with your friends so you can complain about high tuition is dangerous.

Just makin' sure.

I'm glad I know where you stand so we can agree to disagree.

Well... couldn't they have moved over a couple steps and still complain?

You know..... just as a common courtesy?

Question: If it's dangerous for me and my friends to sit with locked arms in a public place we help pay for so we can complain about tuition and other things, what is safe?

I just wanna know the criteria, because there are so many unwritten rules among some people around here.

Can I lock arms with my friends on my yard and complain as much as I'd like?

What about inside my home? Can I do that there?

I'm serious, you know how these Republicans are. So unpredictable. They say "get gov't off our backs". But what they really mean is "we want gov't to be just small enough to fit in your bedroom or your doctor's office, or in public parks and other public spaces".

Does "Don't Tread On Me" actually mean "Go Tread On Those Unarmed Peaceniks, They Can't Even Defend Themselves"?