Thread: The Progressive Movement Explained

Only the actual tyranny in Henry Ford's case was brutally beating union organizers, even women, while the government looked on. It was supporting the Nazis while vilifying the Jews and making them scapegoats.

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

If they are actually prohibited by the Constitution, why haven't the courts ruled them to be completely illegal by now?

If you read what the Founding Father's said, especially Jefferson on judicial tyranny, you will find it was never intended that the courts would be the final arbiter of what is Constitutional but rather it rests with the people (in convention). In addition, if you trust the courts the matter of slavery was "settled" in the famous Dred Scott case.

Furthermore, if you look at the empirical evidence since Federalists packed the courts before Jefferson took office you'll find they federal judges rarely rule against those that pay their salary; they seldom rule against Congressional acts of new powers.

The bottom line, it is up to us to decide, our own conscious.

Originally Posted by JohnLocke

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Furthermore, if you look at the empirical evidence since Federalists packed the courts before Jefferson took office you'll find they federal judges rarely rule against those that pay their salary; they seldom rule against Congressional acts of new powers.
...

Very true. They typically let Congress do whatever it wants.

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

Well it's my turn to put you in a 'camp'. I keep hearing from conservatives they believe in 'small government', 'less government' etc...WHEN have they ever DONE IT? And when conservatives do gain power, it is only less government for the wealthy and MORE government for the middle class and poor. They want to tell a women what she can do with her uterus and test the bodily fluids of everyone else. The only 'less' conservatives want in government is less liberals.

Now here is where Conservatives, REAL Conservatives are pulling their hair out. Most of the current crop of Republicans are NOT Conservatives. They are playing politics in order to maintain power. Go along to get along rather than push the real Conservatives messages and stand up to those principles. I find it very disingenuous of ALL liberals to equate Conservatives with Republicans. There are barely a handful of REAL Conservatives in Congress. About like trying to find a Republican in Massachusetts besides me.

So you can keep saying conservative this and that but in reality it is all dishonest as what you mean is R.I.N.O. not Conservative. But again don't let facts get in the way of a lie.

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

Only the actual tyranny in Henry Ford's case was brutally beating union organizers, even women, while the government looked on. It was supporting the Nazis while vilifying the Jews and making them scapegoats.

If someone comes at your with a bat say, are you going to sit and take it? Unions were no more polite and nice than Ford. Again don't let facts get in the way of a good lie.

And to remind you over 150,000 Americans of Japanese descent were interned UnConstiutionally by Presidential Executive Order 9066. Unilateral jailing without charges by the great Liberal FDR. So if Henry Ford's actions are sidelined and he is to be denigrated because he was Anti-Jew then FDR should be considered similarly.

Children of the Camps | INTERNMENT HISTORY

Sounds eerily familiar when you read the whole article. I am not a big fan of Bush Jr but at least those in Guantanamo are at least Foreign not domestic. Then again the nice new military bill passed sounds a lot like it could happen again. I forget the actual bill that was just passed. Seems to me though that the Democrats and Liberals have a long standing history of provable racism and willingness to suspend the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

Henry Ford deserves credit for paying his workers so they could buy the products they built. And there were other men who did good things. But not enough of them followed Ford's lead. They had the opportunity and failed. But what is lost here is the progressive movement was not without CAUSE. That seem to be lost on conservatives today. The conditions WARRANTED the actions they took. Is that so hard to understand. Were all our ancestors idiots?

Henry Ford did that as a publicity stunt and to keep the production line moving. Every ford on the road was a rolling advertisement for Ford. It was all business math no largesse.

Originally Posted by JDJarvis

Henry Ford did that as a publicity stunt and to keep the production line moving. Every ford on the road was a rolling advertisement for Ford. It was all business math no largesse.

I have never denied when I bring up Ford that he was a Greedy bastard. There may have been a small sliver of conscience but in general he was a Greedy Bastard.

Originally Posted by Wlessard

Now here is where Conservatives, REAL Conservatives are pulling their hair out. Most of the current crop of Republicans are NOT Conservatives. They are playing politics in order to maintain power. Go along to get along rather than push the real Conservatives messages and stand up to those principles. I find it very disingenuous of ALL liberals to equate Conservatives with Republicans. There are barely a handful of REAL Conservatives in Congress. About like trying to find a Republican in Massachusetts besides me.

So you can keep saying conservative this and that but in reality it is all dishonest as what you mean is R.I.N.O. not Conservative. But again don't let facts get in the way of a lie.

FACTS? You know Wlessard, I'd like to believe you, because this in my country too, but I don't....WHY? Because every day on this forum, other forums, right wing talk radio, Fox News, right wing websites, right wing think tanks and the right wing echo chamber I hear the same crap parroted by self described 'conservatives' that is identical to the authoritarian controlled GOP. And Republicans are only ostracized by 'conservatives' when they deviate from the GOP party line. Ask Bruce Bartlett and David Frum.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

FACTS? You know Wlessard, I'd like to believe you, because this in my country too, but I don't....WHY? Because every day on this forum, other forums, right wing talk radio, Fox News, right wing websites, right wing think tanks and the right wing echo chamber I hear the same crap parroted by self described 'conservatives' that is identical to the authoritarian controlled GOP. And Republicans are only ostracized by 'conservatives' when they deviate from the GOP party line. Ask Bruce Bartlett and David Frum.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I could say the exact same thing about liberals and those on the left who post.

I do not listen to much more than Mike Church and Andrew Wilkow. At least I don't deliberately listen to Beck, just when I don't pay attention to the time and it hits 9am and Sirius puts him on. When I realize it I switch fast.
I have yet to come across a liberal/left poster who doesn't deflect, obfuscate and in many cases go ad hominem and strawman rather than actually debate on the facts.

I try very very hard to present my logic and back it up with facts and sites that show what I am posting. I don't care if it is Fox or Kos or Huffington or the local liberal rag in my town. I do care about Wiki as it can be changed too easily by just about anyone and I have seen many outright lies there.

So you can keep blanket stereotyping and just assume me or any other poster is the same old same old I will try not to confuse your posts with Machinehead and deal with you based on your posts. Problem is between you, Machinehead and a couple others, all your posts seem to go together with the same tired and factually unsupported assertions.

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

FACTS? You know Wlessard, I'd like to believe you, because this in my country too, but I don't....WHY? Because every day on this forum, other forums, right wing talk radio, Fox News, right wing websites, right wing think tanks and the right wing echo chamber I hear the same crap parroted by self described 'conservatives' that is identical to the authoritarian controlled GOP. And Republicans are only ostracized by 'conservatives' when they deviate from the GOP party line. Ask Bruce Bartlett and David Frum.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I felt there were two distinct thoughts here to address.

When you actually accept first the difference between Republicans and Conservatives you find that there are worlds apart with few exceptions in government. What you describe as authoritarian conservative is no different than liberals who want to make laws like "No Salt" in restaurants because it is bad for you. A real conservative says, no to that law, you can choose not to go to that restaurant and instead go to another if you don't like the salt content. A liberal is trying to legislate what they think is best for you and take away your freedom to choose. Which one is Authoritarian in that example?

I can cite plenty of facts about how Liberals and the Left and the Democrats want to enact laws that should be personal choice. All in the name of what is good for you. I think a good example of the real difference is from Demolition Man.

You see, according to Cocteau's plan, I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".

If you truly have an open mind and are honest at least with yourself, you can see the Progressive Movement is more like the character Cocteua and true Conservatives think more like Edgar Friendly. Less Regulation and less Federal Laws does NOT equate to the strawman of going back to running things in sweatshops and the bad things of the past.

Originally Posted by Wlessard

I could say the exact same thing about liberals and those on the left who post.

I do not listen to much more than Mike Church and Andrew Wilkow. At least I don't deliberately listen to Beck, just when I don't pay attention to the time and it hits 9am and Sirius puts him on. When I realize it I switch fast.
I have yet to come across a liberal/left poster who doesn't deflect, obfuscate and in many cases go ad hominem and strawman rather than actually debate on the facts.

I try very very hard to present my logic and back it up with facts and sites that show what I am posting. I don't care if it is Fox or Kos or Huffington or the local liberal rag in my town. I do care about Wiki as it can be changed too easily by just about anyone and I have seen many outright lies there.

So you can keep blanket stereotyping and just assume me or any other poster is the same old same old I will try not to confuse your posts with Machinehead and deal with you based on your posts. Problem is between you, Machinehead and a couple others, all your posts seem to go together with the same tired and factually unsupported assertions.

You can say whatever you want, and I will always defend your right to do that. But, what I care about is the truth. If we could agree on that, we have a chance to solve our problems. But we don't debate opinions or beliefs, we spend all our time debating the truth and facts. That tells me we don't stand a chance of solving our problem.

I brought up former G.W. Bush speechwriter David Frum as an example. He wrote an op-ed piece on his website after the Affordable Healthcare Act was passed. He revealed Republicans had decided before any debate began, that they would "make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing." They were going to hand the President his 'Waterloo'. Frum was immediately fired by the American Enterprise Institute after that op-ed.

So Republicans LIED when they said they wanted to work with Obama and Democrats, when they were only trying to destroy reform and destroy our president. Please explain to me how that is not domestic terrorism?

THEN, Bruce Bartlett chimed in on Frum being fired and revealed that scholars at the same American Enterprise Institute were 'ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.'

And it turns out what Democrats end up passing was a Republican health care bill, right down to the BIG Heritage Foundation idea; the Individual Mandate.

THAT is the truth. But Frum, the only one from the right who was willing to speak the truth was ostracized, fired and called a RINO.

Waterloo | FrumForum

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

So you can post all the opinions, propaganda and dogma you wish. I will provide facts and truth.


I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.
Harry S. Truman

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

You can say whatever you want, and I will always defend your right to do that. But, what I care about is the truth. If we could agree on that, we have a chance to solve our problems. But we don't debate opinions or beliefs, we spend all our time debating the truth and facts. That tells me we don't stand a chance of solving our problem.

I brought up former G.W. Bush speechwriter David Frum as an example. He wrote an op-ed piece on his website after the Affordable Healthcare Act was passed. He revealed Republicans had decided before any debate began, that they would "make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing." They were going to hand the President his 'Waterloo'. Frum was immediately fired by the American Enterprise Institute after that op-ed.

So Republicans LIED when they said they wanted to work with Obama and Democrats, when they were only trying to destroy reform and destroy our president. Please explain to me how that is not domestic terrorism?

THEN, Bruce Bartlett chimed in on Frum being fired and revealed that scholars at the same American Enterprise Institute were 'ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.'

And it turns out what Democrats end up passing was a Republican health care bill, right down to the BIG Heritage Foundation idea; the Individual Mandate.

THAT is the truth. But Frum, the only one from the right who was willing to speak the truth was ostracized, fired and called a RINO.

Waterloo | FrumForum

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

So you can post all the opinions, propaganda and dogma you wish. I will provide facts and truth.


I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.
Harry S. Truman

Lets start with the Individual mandate and Heritage. Just like the raising of taxes under Reagan and the liberal lies that leave out that the actual raising of spending and lack of honoring the agreement in TERFA was done in overriding the veto on the very next bill the issue of Heritage actually supporting and proposing the individual mandate is in the details.

On Page 2 of the booklet.

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/s..._americans.pdf

You find this at the bottom of the page.

Note: Nothing you read is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Heritage Foundation or as an attempt to aid or hinder the passage of any bill before Congress.

The whole lynch pin that the Liberals and even Gingrich hang their charge that Heritage supported or presented the Individual Mandate is based on the discussions above by Stuart Butler. BUT as you can see. The Heritage Foundation is not supporting the Individual Mandate issue except in allowing Butler to publish his work. Do you think the company that publishes the Anarchist Cookbook condones or supports the use of the information in it? Or does any publishing company support every position presented in any of the books they print and sell for the authors? If the last one were true I could truly show you a schizophrenic company.

Heritage Foundation disclaims any support of what is in there. They published it for Butler. Everything I can find online at this time points to this fact. They published for butler but they did not directly support the idea.

That is a fact that I show here with the PDF of the publication is true.

BTW all that aside, do you think it is possible for an organization to think about something and then decide they may have been wrong and change the policy or idea presented?

Ford did it. When they announced the new Mustang in the late 80's was going to be a front wheel drive car with a radical redesign that sparked massive protests from Mustang Owners. Ford got smart and said... maybe they were wrong and changed what they were going to do. The result was the Mustang staying pretty much as it was and a new car, the Probe, being released as well.

Originally Posted by Wlessard

Lets start with the Individual mandate and Heritage. Just like the raising of taxes under Reagan and the liberal lies that leave out that the actual raising of spending and lack of honoring the agreement in TERFA was done in overriding the veto on the very next bill the issue of Heritage actually supporting and proposing the individual mandate is in the details.

On Page 2 of the booklet.

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/s..._americans.pdf

You find this at the bottom of the page.



The whole lynch pin that the Liberals and even Gingrich hang their charge that Heritage supported or presented the Individual Mandate is based on the discussions above by Stuart Butler. BUT as you can see. The Heritage Foundation is not supporting the Individual Mandate issue except in allowing Butler to publish his work. Do you think the company that publishes the Anarchist Cookbook condones or supports the use of the information in it? Or does any publishing company support every position presented in any of the books they print and sell for the authors? If the last one were true I could truly show you a schizophrenic company.

Heritage Foundation disclaims any support of what is in there. They published it for Butler. Everything I can find online at this time points to this fact. They published for butler but they did not directly support the idea.

That is a fact that I show here with the PDF of the publication is true.

BTW all that aside, do you think it is possible for an organization to think about something and then decide they may have been wrong and change the policy or idea presented?

Ford did it. When they announced the new Mustang in the late 80's was going to be a front wheel drive car with a radical redesign that sparked massive protests from Mustang Owners. Ford got smart and said... maybe they were wrong and changed what they were going to do. The result was the Mustang staying pretty much as it was and a new car, the Probe, being released as well.

You see, HERE is where we always run into problems. Conservatives, who preach 'individual responsibility' always BLAME OTHERS when their feet are held to the fire.

The individual mandate is a conservative idea. Man up and quit the obfuscation!

Do you need me to bury you with the TRUTH, or can we move on?