America moves to the Left - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Angel Of Mercy · #31 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamInTheBurgh

Your statement is 100% false. Some polling has shown that the majority of Americans support some form of universal health care, but when asked about a single payer government run system, the answer is a resounding no.

I don't talk through my halo, SITB, and just as I backed up ALL the rest of the information in that post, I can back up the statement with which you appear to take issue. Ready?

This comes from the recent book by Noam Chomsky--which I just happen to be reading at the moment--and which is rigorously documented. I quote from page 225, about halfway down:

"An NBC-Wall Street Journal poll found that "over 2/3 of all Americans thought the government should guarantee 'everyone' the best and most advanced health care that technology can supply"; a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 80% regard universal health care as "more important than holding down taxes"; polls reported in Business Week found that 67% of Americans think it's a good idea to guarantee health care for all US citizens as Canada and Britain do, with just 2% dissenting' the Pew Research Center found that 64% of Americans favor the "US government guaranteeing health care for all its citizens, even if it means raising taxes..."

Now, unless you're prepared to argue with an esteemed gentleman who has more honorary degrees than you have fingers and toes, I would suggest it is YOUR statement which is "100% false."

Don't argue with me. I cheat. I use something called facts.

Angel Of Mercy · #32 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

I seem to have neglected to mention the title of the book i was quoting from. It is Failed States by Noam Chomsky, hardcover version, copyright 2006.

You may look up my reference at your leisure...

SamInTheSouth · #33 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

I don't talk through my halo, SITB, and just as I backed up ALL the rest of the information in that post, I can back up the statement with which you appear to take issue. Ready?

This comes from the recent book by Noam Chomsky--which I just happen to be reading at the moment--and which is rigorously documented. I quote from page 225, about halfway down:

"An NBC-Wall Street Journal poll found that "over 2/3 of all Americans thought the government should guarantee 'everyone' the best and most advanced health care that technology can supply"; a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 80% regard universal health care as "more important than holding down taxes"; polls reported in Business Week found that 67% of Americans think it's a good idea to guarantee health care for all US citizens as Canada and Britain do, with just 2% dissenting' the Pew Research Center found that 64% of Americans favor the "US government guaranteeing health care for all its citizens, even if it means raising taxes..."

Now, unless you're prepared to argue with an esteemed gentleman who has more honorary degrees than you have fingers and toes, I would suggest it is YOUR statement which is "100% false."

Don't argue with me. I cheat. I use something called facts.

Noam Chomsky is an avowed Communist. His opinions are heavily biased and therefore, lack true credibility. Secondly, his book is opinion, and does not constitute as fact.

Polling can be manipulative unless you know the particular questions asked and what he lists proves little.

'"over 2/3 of all Americans thought the government should guarantee 'everyone' the best and most advanced health care that technology can supply"'

Well of course most people said yes. At the base of it, that sounds great. The best health care for everyone. Few would say no. Now ask those same people if they want that system to be a single payer system with the government running everything. Your result will be quite different. Notice, he didn't list any questions like that, did he.

So no, it is not my statement that is 100% false. You have not refuted what I said. In fact, you confirmed it.

As I said before, only an idiot would want to give the government that kind of power over their lives, and such idiots don't deserve to live in a free society.

Gort · #34 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

Gort: "Klaatu barada nikto." Sucker. You fell for the fried ice cream hook, like and sinker.

I don't know who your friends are or what their politics are...but the VAST middle of America wants Single-Payer Healthcare run by the government...and they wouldn't mind higher taxes to get it. In case you haven't been paying attention--and the radical right is notoriously deficient in that repect--the US is the ONLY First World country that doesn't have it. The. Only. One. What we have is a system whose parameters are dictated by those least qualified to be in charge: The HMO's, the insurance companies and Big Pharma. America spends more than any country in the world for healthcare and gets the least return on the investment.

Wanna see what cheap-labor conservative ideals have dome to America? Let's go to the videotape!

The Index of Social Progress, released by the Fifth International Conference of the International Society for Life Quality Studies, ranks 163 nations We aren't first. Denmark holds that distinction. As a matter of fact, we aren't even in the top 25! How about those apples? We're 27th, which puts us at the approximate level of Poland and Slovenia. The Society has determined that chronic poverty is the greatest threat to our social progress, since 33 million Americns--12 million of them children!--are poor. Contrary to popular perception, the majority of the poor in this country are members of established households who work full-time and are white. Read that again...just to make sure you've got it. NO OTHER economically advantaged nation tolerates such a level of poverty. Other factors impeding social progress include slow economic growth, increasing unemployment, insecure access to adequate healthcare and deteriorating schools in urban areas. Sounds like the whole GOP agenda, doesn't it? This puts the lie to any disingenuous rhetoric about an "Ownership Society," which really means to most of us that 'we're on our own.' Rightwad politicians hate prosperity and are bent upon turning America into one big banana republic. Doing a bloody good job of it, too

This depressing scenario is further bolstered by the United Nations' Human Development Index which reveals that, among wealthy nations, we have the highest infant mortality rate, (Higher than Cuba. CUBA!!) the highest teen birth rate, (THERE's your abstinence-only success story!), the highest child abuse rate, the highest child injury death rate and the greatest in-country gaps in mortality rates. Of the 25 wealthiest nations, only two have a lower average life expectancy than we do and we have the highest probability at birth of not reaching age 60. America's healthcare, if judged by any standards other than how much we spend on it and the rate of profitability of our leading drug manufacturers, is pretty pathetic. Other wealthy countries provide universal social protection (Hello, France!), offer a generally less punitive vision for social life and the result is that they live longer and are healthier. And--I'm just guessing here--happier.

Put THAT in your pipe and smoke on it for a while...

I would love to see some of your numbers supporting your supposition that the vast majority of centrists want a single payer health care system.

Angel Of Mercy · #35 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamInTheBurgh

Noam Chomsky is an avowed Communist. His opinions are heavily biased and therefore, lack true credibility. Secondly, his book is opinion, and does not constitute as fact.

Polling can be manipulative unless you know the particular questions asked and what he lists proves little.

'"over 2/3 of all Americans thought the government should guarantee 'everyone' the best and most advanced health care that technology can supply"'

Well of course most people said yes. At the base of it, that sounds great. The best health care for everyone. Few would say no. Now ask those same people if they want that system to be a single payer system with the government running everything. Your result will be quite different. Notice, he didn't list any questions like that, did he.

So no, it is not my statement that is 100% false. You have not refuted what I said. In fact, you confirmed it.

As I said before, only an idiot would want to give the government that kind of power over their lives, and such idiots don't deserve to live in a free society.

In other words, you just don't listen to facts you don't happen to like. Willful ignorance is even worse than stupid. And, for your information, when Chomsky or anyone else quotes POLLS, how can that qualify as "opinion?" Public opinion, yes; Prof. Noam's opinion? Not bloody likely.

I almost feel sorry for you...almost.

Angel Of Mercy · #36 (**permalink**) 04-01-2007

Gort: See my two previous posts above that frivolous far right blathering. Maybe you aren't as benighted as SITB and you'll attempt to unnderstand what's being said here...

SamInTheSouth · #37 (**permalink**) 04-05-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

In other words, you just don't listen to facts you don't happen to like. Willful ignorance is even worse than stupid. And, for your information, when Chomsky or anyone else quotes POLLS, how can that qualify as "opinion?" Public opinion, yes; Prof. Noam's opinion? Not bloody likely.

I almost feel sorry for you...almost.

You still haven't refuted anything I've said.

kramer · #38 (**permalink**) 04-05-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

I don't talk through my halo, SITB, and just as I backed up ALL the rest of the information in that post, I can back up the statement with which you appear to take issue. Ready?

This comes from the recent book by Noam Chomsky--which I just happen to be reading at the moment--and which is rigorously documented. I quote from page 225, about halfway down:

"An NBC-Wall Street Journal poll found that "over 2/3 of all Americans thought the government should guarantee 'everyone' the best and most advanced health care that technology can supply"; a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 80% regard universal health care as "more important than holding down taxes"; polls reported in Business Week found that 67% of Americans think it's a good idea to guarantee health care for all US citizens as Canada and Britain do, with just 2% dissenting' the Pew Research Center found that 64% of Americans favor the "US government guaranteeing health care for all its citizens, even if it means raising taxes..."

Now, unless you're prepared to argue with an esteemed gentleman who has more honorary degrees than you have fingers and toes, I would suggest it is YOUR statement which is "100% false."

Don't argue with me. I cheat. I use something called facts.

Quote:

Canada is now one of only two countries in the world where it is still illegal to compete with the government system – regardless of its abject failure in providing timely access to medical care. Even the Supreme Court in Quebec pointed out in a June 2005 decision that "access to a waiting list is not access to health care."

Quote:

Data from the Fraser Institute, the New England Journal of Medicine and various government sources in Canada confirm that Canadians wait an average eight to 12 weeks for necessary cardiac surgery, 10 to 20 weeks for brain surgery, 30-90 days for an MRI, up to five weeks to see a cancer specialist and 23 to 58 weeks for a hip replacement.

Quote:

Canada also ranks very low in access to modern medical technology, even compared with countries with significant government control of health care, albeit less than Canada's viselike grip. But the Fraser Institute says that, on the basis of the most recent five-year trends, Canada's public health spending in most provinces is on pace to consume more than half of total revenue sources by 2020, two-thirds by 2035 and all provincial revenue by 2050.

Quote:

Why do Canadians accept this lack of access to medical care? Perhaps many don't appreciate its significance, but those in the know are well aware of it. Brian Day, an orthopedic surgeon in Vancouver and the president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association (CMA), was quoted as saying that "physicians have recognized that the status quo in Canada is not an option. The vast majority of doctors believe that significant reform is needed and that part of that reform should be looking at alternative systems."

source

From another source:

Quote:

London's Observer (3/3/02) carried a story saying that an "unpublished report shows some patients are now having to wait more than eight months for treatment, during which time many of their cancers become incurable." Another story said, "According to a World Health Organisation report to be published later this year, around 10,000 British people die unnecessarily from cancer each year — three times as many as are killed on our roads."

Quote:

Despite the long waiting times Canadians suffer, sometimes resulting in death, under federal law, private clinics are not legally allowed to provide services covered by the Canada Health Act. Regardless of this prohibition, a few black-market clinics service patients who are willing to break the law to get treatment. In British Columbia, for example, Bill 82 provides that a physician can be fined up to $20,000 for accepting fees for surgery. According to a Canada News article, "Shortage of Doctors and Nurses Could Hurt Medicare Reforms" (3/5/03), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s.

source

Kramer

Angel Of Mercy · #39 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamInTheBurgh

You still haven't refuted anything I've said.

That's because you haven't said anything. Nor have you documented any of that blather.

Chomsky a Communist?!? Don't be exceedingly ridiculous. Show me.

You, citizen, are an excruciating waste of time...

Gort · #40 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

Gort: See my two previous posts above that frivolous far right blathering. Maybe you aren't as benighted as SITB and you'll attempt to unnderstand what's being said here...

Sorry but as much as it pains me I have to agree with Sam. If you are going to use Chomsky as your only source that is hardly worth listening to and certainly isn't an unbiased source. I would also like to kow how he comes up with his numbers.

Angel Of Mercy · #41 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by kramer

source

From another source:

source

Kramer

And your point is? Canada may have waiting lists...but we have almost FIFTY MILLION American citizens who can wait until Hell freezes over and won't get any care whatsoever. That's thanks to the greedy Insurance companies, HMO's and Big Pharma who bleed us dry because THEY have control over healthcare costs in this country. And did I mention France? Germany? Denmark? Great Britain? Austrailia? (Best in the world, by the way.) Japan? Iceland? Norway? Spain? I could go on...

Don't give me that tired old "Socialized Medicine" hogwash, either. Single-payer healthcare run by the government would DECREASE labor costs; just look into what's breaking the back of General Motors, why don't you? It would improve the quality and, likely, the LENGTH of our lives. Like it does in Europe.

Oh, I forgot: According to you cheap-labor conservatives, there's no such thing as "The General Welfare," is there? I was just hallucinating whan I saw that phrase in the Constitution...right?

Angel Of Mercy · #42 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gort

Sorry but as much as it pains me I have to agree with Sam. If you are going to use Chomsky as your only source that is hardly worth listening to and certainly isn't an unbiased source. I would also like to kow how he comes up with his numbers.

Do you read English? Are you literate? Those are OPINION POLLS as clearly stated, not "his numbers." You've got a lot of badmouth about Chomsky...with NOTHING to back it up. If you're going to say it here, you'd better bloody well be able to prove it. I did.

(And If you REALLY want to know where he gets them, may I suggest that you go to the library and LOOK IT UP? I told you exactly where.)

I have no intention of doing your work for you...not to satisfy mere idle curiosity.

electric-rascal · #43 (**permalink**) 04-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

...but we have almost FIFTY MILLION American citizens who can wait until Hell freezes over and won't get any care whatsoever.

50M people in the US get no health care? Please provide supporting documentation.

SamInTheSouth · #44 (**permalink**) 04-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

And your point is? Canada may have waiting lists...but we have almost FIFTY MILLION American citizens who can wait until Hell freezes over and won't get any care whatsoever.

That is 100% false.

Quote:

Don't give me that tired old "Socialized Medicine" hogwash, either. Single-payer healthcare run by the government would DECREASE labor costs; just look into what's breaking the back of General Motors, why don't you? It would improve the quality and, likely, the LENGTH of our lives. Like it does in Europe.

It will also degrade the quality of health care in this country like it does in Europe and in Canada. Why do you think people from all over the world come to the U.S. to get treated? We have the best health care in the world. I don't see flocks of people heading to Canada or France to get their surgeries done.

We are a country that focuses on the individual not the collective. It is individual liberties that keep us free. If it's Communism you want, move to China.

SamInTheSouth · #45 (**permalink**) 04-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Of Mercy

That's because you haven't said anything.

No, I was quite clear. I said that the vast majority of Americans are opposed to a single payer health care system run by the government and I am correct. You insist I am wrong, yet provide nothing to show that. The biased information you provided from Comrade Chomsky have nothing to do with a single payer system run by the government.

You're dancing around it because you can't provide the data to support your claim. It doesn't exist.

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