I've thought for some time that medical and dental schemes should be taken out of labour contracts. That would be a good start to tidying up the system a bit I would think.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Your argument is based on ideology "The government can't do anything efficiently".
Mine is based on empirical data, "40 governments do provide better health care at a substantially lower cost".

While government run solutions are not as efficient as a free market, there is very little about health care in the US that is based on the free market, almost every aspect of health care in the US is a government granted monopoly, which is currently extracting monopoly profits from the US health care consumer.

So the argument isn't over a government program vs a free market.
The Argument is over a government program vs a Monopoly.

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

But why do you make the assumption that government run solutions aren't as efficient as a free market Goober? I'm not getting at you I'm just arguing that's a nostrum that isn't entirely accurate.

You're right about the monopoly though - if I may say so. And it's a good point and one that has informed my own understanding of our health care system here in Australia.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Most likely a government run health care system is less efficient than a private insurance but....
A universal health care system requires only one managment, while multible small private insurances all require seperate managments. Additionaly, private insurances have to invest heavily into advertisment. These are extra managent and advertisment costs that fall away with universal healthcare.
And I think the situation in Switzerland proves me right, here healthcare is run more or less private, and like the US our healthcosts rank in the upper league.

My arguement has nothing to do with ideology it has to do with the historical evidence of large government run programs in the US. So please spare me the partisan bullshit.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Do you even know what those words mean? Those big ones with all the scary syllables like ad hominem?

It would be difficult for me to care any less about YOUR opinion of my credibility. All you've done since my "Cheap-Labor Conservative Mythology" post, citizen, is whine and and accuse and cower for sympathy. Oh, yeah, and misspell words. Are you scared of the logic and reasoning? Or did it just go over your head altogether? Has it ever maybe occurred to you that although I do not claim to be able to offer a solution that I can still discern when something like your worldview HASN'T worked, ISN'T working and WON'T work? More of the same neo-liberal pauperization is what cannot be risked. Got that? (Just like the failed Iraq occupation: It's failing! Let's send MORE soldiers!) Don't be deliberately obtuse.

Attack you? While you try to dance away from your poisonous Welstschauung? That would be MUCH too easy...

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"Tomorrow, you're all going to wake up in a Brave New World, a world where the Constitution gets trampled by an army of terrorist clones created in a stem cell research laboratory, run by homosexual doctors who sterilize their instruments over burning American flags."

If you care nothing about my opinion of your credibility why do you spend so much time responding to my opinion of your credibility? Perhaps had you bothered to even learn of my geopolitical views based on my many posts, and if you had you would hardly be of the opinion I have any sympathy for the Iraq war, you could actually address issues with me. Since you look at one post and assume from that you understand the other person they really is no point to this. You may be that shallow, I am not.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

What evidence?
Social Security has the lowest administrative expense of any pension plan in the world. Medicare spends 2% on administration, private insurance companies spend 25% on administration.
I'd say the stench of partisan bullshit that is filling your nostrils is coming from your own ideologically based arguments.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

generally the free market reacts quicker than the government and can come up with a more efficient solution to a given problem. But that only happens when there is a free market, with many buyers, many sellers, low barriers to entry, and perfect knowledge of market conditions by market participants.

There is very little of the health care market that can be described as a free market. Consumers have little choice, the typical person getting employer based coverage has a choice of a couple of plans, once they have picked a plan they are usually restricted to list of participating physicians(the supply of which is limited by government licensing), when they need care, their primary care provider refers them participating specialists at participating hospitals.
Drugs that are prescribed are legally obtained only through certain supply channels and at every step the idea of negotiating a better price never enters the picture.

Maybe a free market could provide health care at a lower cost than a national health system, but every national health system provides health care at a lower cost than the enforced monopoly system we currently have in the US.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Goober, loo at the numbers more closely. Traditionally some benefits were available to both medicare and medicaid people simultaneously. Under the new rules that is no longer the case and as a result states are now paying the federal government ofsetting the cost. Where do you think the states are getting that money from? That's right the taxpayer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/po...partner=rssnyt

Moreover at present who is covered by medicare and to what extent? And the cost is how much even with this small population being covered? And how many workers areleft in the work pool to pay for it, and finally which way is that number going?
http://www.kff.org/medicare/upload/7305.pdf
As to the 2% administrative cost issue, apperantly there are some hidden costs Medicare doesn't account for.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2006...trative-costs/

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

These articles use some faulty reasoning, I can't link to my source, because it was a two hour conversation I had yesterday with a Health Care Actuary.
He pointed out that medical costs for a 55 year old are triple those for a 25 year old, and as your last link points out, the medicare population is older has much higher per capita claims and so their per capita administrative cost would be closer to the per capita administrative costs of private companies.
This sounds like fine logic, except that most administrative costs are incurred per claim, not per capita, so the comparison of per capita administrative costs is not as valid as the percentage numbers most commonly used.

Even with all the quibbling about just what the difference is, the fact remains that Medicare spends far less on administration than the even the most efficient private insurance plans (which appear efficient because they insure large groups of young people who have very little in the way of claims).

If Socialized Medicine is so bad, why haven't any of the countries that have it voted it out?
I think you'll find that you can collect anecdotal grumbling about any subject you want. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts in this forum where people relate anecdotes that would indicate Canadians are unhappy with their national health system, yet only 2% of Canadians believe the US has a better system. These numbers indicate that it is Americans who are the least happy with their health care system of any rich nation.
The U.S. has the best health care system in the world

Unless a free market solution can be devised, and I seriously doubt the free market model works with health care, certainly what we have in the US is not free market, National Health is the best solution.

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Right-o, Goober. And let's not forget the United States post office, either. How much does FedEx charge for the same service?

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"Tomorrow, you're all going to wake up in a Brave New World, a world where the Constitution gets trampled by an army of terrorist clones created in a stem cell research laboratory, run by homosexual doctors who sterilize their instruments over burning American flags."

Oh...THIS must be "the one post" that I didn't read, the one that doesn't tell me anything about you and your worship of the toxic cheap-labor agenda.

Geopolitical views? The Iraq occupation? Is that what you mean? I didn't mention anything about it. You're the one who did that.

You really are much too easy. And gullible. You think I'm talking to YOU?!? I'm talking to the lurkers, Gortie; you're just kind of a demonstration prop...y'know, like show and tell?

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"Tomorrow, you're all going to wake up in a Brave New World, a world where the Constitution gets trampled by an army of terrorist clones created in a stem cell research laboratory, run by homosexual doctors who sterilize their instruments over burning American flags."

Definitely agreed.

Again agreed.

I wonder if it's a natural monopoly and the free market can't break it and perhaps given it's a natural monopoly perhaps the free market shouldn't be allowed near it. The reason I think that is that there would only be the illusion of the benefits of the free market (ie competition leading to lower prices, cost restraints and efficiency and effectiveness) and not the realities.

If it's a natural monopoly then it should be controlled by government.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Goober made the point about socialised health care being popular where it exists. I'm no expert in this - probably like many people in Australia - but I know what I like. I won't try and give a chapter and verse history of socialised medicine in this country but the conservatives have tried to attack it since it was introduced by a Labor (social democratic party to the Left of the US Democratic Party) in about 1972. It has been nibbled at by successive conservative governments but even the most radical reactionary of any conservative government we have ever had (the current Howard government) wouldn't attack our health system. They know that they would be driven from office and kept out of office for many years if they tried to dismantle it. They've done some bad things simply on the basis of ideology but even this mob of right wing nutters won't shoot themselves in the head by totally privatising our system.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh