Islamic fascists (who spout death to America, behead innocents, blow up innocents, sentence women who are raped to death or stone them, and do pretty much anything else that civilized persons of all nationalities couldn't even imagine) are a threat to America (or any other civilized group) is a lie?

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

You missed the second two phrases. - This rings quite true.

Also, not trying to put words in Erik's mouth, but I think he meant to say "Muslims" instead of "Islamic fascists" ...

Well let me clarify:

There are indeed groups whose goal it is to kill americans. But the threat is so extremely overblown and the policy to fight them is so ridiculous it led me to believe it is just a facade to introduce controversial laws and gain economic benefits. Hundred thousand soldiers are sent to the other side of the globe while 1 guy is supposed to secure 500 miles of the united states border.

The police is trained to fight crime and protect citizens. Soldiers are trained to shoot people

No I really ment Islamic fascists. These people first of all arent that interested in bringing down america. They'd rather turn their own countries into religious states. Secondly they have nowhere near the means to hurt a country on the other side of the globe, only through covert ops. And it should be clear to everyone that preventing these covert ops is done by securing your own land in stead of securing the rest of the world.

I respectfully disagree with some of this. I agree with your views for the most part, but not on this.

First off, sorry for assuming you meant something youdidn't - I simply thought you were pointing out how stupid it is to say "Muslims are a threat to America" (which would have been consistent in views with the rest of the sentence), so I assumed ...

Islamic fascists (extremists, to be honest) are not just a threat to the US, but to many other countries ... Also, they've repeatedly said that one of their main goals is to cause death and destruction in/to the US (paraphrasing).

And they do have the means to hurt a country - just look at 9/11. Ok, that didn't bring the entire of the US down, but it was terrorism neverthless, and it's certainly affected the US in more ways than one.

I don't disagree though that it's best to secure your own land instead of waging wars of aggression against nations that never had anything to do with Islamic extremists (Saddam's Iraq was socialist and not extremist at all in many aspects) ...

Goals of al qaeda ("3 teachings of bin laden"):
- removal of non-believers from islamic domaine (mainly Bin Laden's country saudi arabia)
- revenge for the deaths because of the iraq boycot
- return of Jeruzalem, Mekka and Medina to the islamic people.

Hamas:
- destruction of Israel to make it a sharia-based state called palestine

Hezbollah (not widely considered a terrorist organization since it disaproves attacks on civilians like the 9/11 WTC attack)
- fighting imperialists, mainly in lebanon (they arent even fascists, they are democratic and stand for freedom of religion)

Islamic jihad:
- turning lebanon into an islamic state

To conclude: I don't think the majority of islamic organizations called terrorists by the united states are fighting for the destruction of the US, and that is what is being said by politicians to the american people.

I think we are not communicating well enough. I agree fully with the bolded part, but true Islamic extremists (not just the ones the US says are extremists) do wish death upon innocent people through their actions. Al Quaida, no matter WHAT they say are true Islamic extremists. Hamas does many reprehnsible things, but then so do the Israelis, so I don't point the finger solely at them.

So what are we disagreeing about then?

Well, a number of things ...

I disagree with your views on Al Quaida for one - they most certainly wish destruction upon the US.

I also disagree with your statement saying that saying "Islamic extremists are a threat to America" is a lie ...

Well i guess from a certain perspective islamic extremist are a threat to america, like burglars and robbers are a threat to america.

But nobody is talking about a war against burglars and making you afraid of them and thats why i think it is so overblown.

I don't agree with your analogy, but I get your point, I think ...

You dont agree? Though burglars dont do big attacks like 9/11 they do significant amounts of economical damage and with the large availability of guns I bet americans sometimes get killed. If burglar gangs wouldnt be fought they would be a huge threat to society.

Millions of dollars are spent in the fight against burglary. These people operate in individual cells or independant small groups, making them hard to catch. There are also large amounts of burglars in 'sleeping cells' which awake when the oppertunity arises. A recent example of such an awakening happened in the aftermath of hurricane katrina and also in the aftermath of the decisive psv-ajax match in amsterdam.

Now do you understand my analogy? Scared yet?

I don't disagree with your point. I just wouldn't compare terrorists to mere burglars, as a burglar can be someone who steals a dollar from someone one day and never harms anyone while doing it. That's all - I agree with what your saying basically.

I would say you didn't "try", you succeeded.

"Islamic fascists" and "Muslims" are two different things.

You should shun your predjudices...

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Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

You should shun your habit of baiting Forum posters ...