and end up staying in iraq and afganistan and do more of what is absolutely necessary in the war on terror and I hope they do it infinetly better then the bush administration.

this I think would be ultimate victory. I wonder what libs would do if thier chosen canidate does not listen to some of thier rather paranoid thoughts.. hell let the dem president destroy the patriot act and start up a similiar bill with a different name...

this is what I predict would happen anyway.. I wonder if the 'progressives' would be as whiney as they are now. I would not compain. In fact I am looking forward to it.

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pass it on.

Well, I can agree with your title, but really not much else. I see the war going one of two ways: 1) The Dems in Congress will try to force Bush to pull out of Iraq. He says,"NoWay!" as he has already done. Then sometime around Oct '08 (we'll call it the "October Surprise"), Bush will announce a massive pull out. This will have all the Republicans claiming credit, while all the Dems claim credit because they have been pushing for it all along or 2) Bush, for reasons only known to him, stays in Iraq. A Democrat in the White House is a sure deal and the first thing the Dem president does is pull out.

If Bush stays in Iraq, the Republicans won't have a snowball's chance in hell, IMO. Afghanistan is a whole different issue since it's a NATO operation. I wonder why we don't hear near as many news stories coming out of Afghanistan. I think it's one of two things: 1) NATO has their shit together and/or 2) American mass media. We've really bitten off more than we can chew. Working with NATO in Afghanistan and going after Bin Laden should have been our top priority.

"...destroy the patriot act..." - Good Riddance! Something passed with only 45 days of debate immediately after 9/11. Does that sound like something passed out of emotion? It does to me. The best thing this country can do to protect against terrorism at home is to protect our borders or, and this is crazy so follow me here, work on our international relations with Muslim countries and wait, because I'm about to get even crazier, how about if we pull our head out of Israel's ass.

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What a contrast in posts #1 & #2! #1 sounding like the whining of a small, disobedient child with #2 offering logical analysis and practical solutions.

Post 1 is a lot closer to the mark though believe i or not; there's no chance whoever wins in 08 that the troops will be completely out of Iraq.

I guarantee even if the Dems win we'll have at least a 6 figure number of troops in Iraq at the start of the next decade and tens of thousands still there for many more years to come, definately still at the end of the next Presidential term.

Btw this shouldn't come as a surprise to most, its not an ideological or partisan thing, its just quite simply the logistics of war. Even if you wanted you couldn't pull out more than about 10 or 20% of your troops without putting all the rest of them at risk.

...aren't they already at risk?

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"Anyone that needs what they want, and doesn’t want what they need
I want nothing to do with
And to do what I want
And to do what I please
Is first on my to-do list"
-Gnarls Barkley, "Going On" lyrics

Not the level they would be if there was a chunk of them missing from the most dangerous areas, which is kind of the idea the Dems have going right now...the troops they wanna keep there are only there is they can successfully serve no purpose.

No reasonable person expects them to all leave in one day. At the same time we need uber-aggressive diplomacy with Iraq's neighbors, no matter what.

If I voted for someone who promised to do the above (and it seems that that is what Obama, among others, would try to do) and then reneged, I would be highly pissed.

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"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Matthew 5:9

Richardson, and he got totall slammed by Biden in that debate on youtube.

Biden seems to understand that we will have a significant number of forces there for a long time, but he does wanna cut down the numbers of forces in harms way.

I can't figure out the logic to that, things have improved since the surge and when fighting themhead to head in the worst places works Biden wants to go back to not only before the surge started but take our forces out of the places where the most terrorists are!

So it seems he wants to leave them and then let them fill vacuums which Iraqi's can't.

But he has his own ideas of splitting Iraq up anyway.

Why? We're waging the war in Afghanistan with the leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan at each other's throats. We may deal with Pakistan but they don't deal with each other. We don't deal with Iran and Syria but Iraq does so why do we need to get involved diplomatically?

Its not that's he's making a promise he can't keep later and reneging on it, its a promise he knows he can't keep even while he's saying it now, there's no way there are gonna be huge numbers of U.S. troops coming home in 09 irrelevant of whoever is in power.

I think Bush will only win if he stays in Iraq. If he pulls out he gets to be both.. warmonger and coward. unless of course there is something resembling success in iraq. which probably wont occur.

If democrats are strong on national security and dont do anything stupid and dangerous. and don't attempt to do what alot of idiots on this forum want to do... i don't know.. just simply let iran get nukes and I dont know.. invade saudi arabia and pakistan.. or cut off ties with all governments in the mideast...
we need intelligence, and creative thinking about how to achieve victory.. not to make everyone believe we are on the moral equivelency of terrorists. those idiots want us to think we are morally the same as alqaida.. well..

If the dems win, they cant whine.. if the dems win and are strong and effective on national security and dont do stupid things..the republicans wont. or should not whine.... I am hoping for a sensible democratic victory to unite the country.. in other words.


all the rest of your stuff I could debate for hours or I am undecided at the moment on it, but not interested in this thread.

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pass it on.

You created the thread.

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So many cowards.

You know who you are.

Doesnt matter WHO takes away rights, they will/should get equal treatment. TO let it pass simply because it went through your selected party, is sheepish. Why be a lemming?

And there is nothing paranoid about the response to such (truly paranoid) measures as the Patriot Act and NSA warrantless wiretaps. I like that people have the will to question authority. Sign of a healthy democracy. Question everything.

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It's okay Pram. I tend to have that effect on guys. They appear interested, I respond, and then suddenly they aren't interested anymore. I find it happens most often in a bar, but hey, I guess it could happen here as well. I'm beginning to think it's me

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what I am trying to say is that I am not exactly against those things that crystal suggested... Iprefer success in Iraq, but if national security dictates otherwise I will listen. I wont listen to paranoia and conspiracies.

Patriot act I am definently for, maybe with slight alterations to it but I definently approve of wire tapping phone calls overseas from suspicious people. or whatever. a rewording might be needed but thats it in my opinion.

I am undecided on israel, I support it morally though and I do not find there to be any excuse to be pro palestine, but i think national security is more important I do not like the attitude that some law makers seem to have... that israel is an extension of america. and thats just stupid.. israel should be supported by america but it should be underthe table.. no more announcements. no one needs to know how much money we give israel.

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pass it on.

So much for transparency.

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"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Matthew 5:9