So maybe the solution is somewhere between Hillarys socialist ideas and insurance companies ? If you think eliminating insurance companies is the answer or eliminating PROFIT for them (same thing I guess) then what would we end up with ? Totally govt. controlled healthcare for ALL ? That we ALL pay for ?

But what is that ? Eliminating the free market and promoting socialism isn't it ?

You'd have us beleive the drag on our economy created by illegal immigration is actually a BOOST. - If you want to continue to blame all the nations problems on some tomato pickers, be my guest.

Or if not believe that, ignore it.

But it seems ignoring and redirecting are the main parts of this game you play.

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3 types; Leaders. Followers. Users.

Well really, health insurance is only a part of the insurance industry... the insurance industry would survive.

And some things just should not be left to the free market...Our military should never be privatized....

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Screw Change!! Let's have a Seamless Transition of Power and Policy.. John McSame in 2008!

How would it survive if we eliminated the insurance industries ability to gain some profit ?

I guess if they became bored rich people managing and shuffling around the money from for profit investment accts. to pay for care for the payees it might work. IF we could find enough rich people bored enough to volunteer for such jobs ?

Sounds crazy doesn't it ?

Yes, and the military is quite a different facet of a soveriegn nation than it's healthcare system.

But I agree that the military shouldn't be privatized.

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3 types; Leaders. Followers. Users.

What is the difference between paying for insurance from insurance companies, which exist to make a profit, and paying the government for "insurance", where there is no profit for anyone but service providers? What service is it that the health insurance industry delivers that justifies their massive profits? It's all profit, no product.

It's obvious that I am not shocked and dismayed by the use of the word "socialism". The highway system, the mail, public schools all administered by the Government. Or maybe you think they should all be privatized too?

I'm not playing a game, I'm trying to have a discussion. I believe illegal immigration is a problem, but it is a problem caused by greedy employers, an indifferent US government and a corrupt Mexican government, not the immigrants themselves. To some how imply that the problems with are healthcare system are caused by, or really even affected by, illegal immigrants taking their sick kids to the emergency room is ludicrous.

So you tell me:

and

Then say:


Hospital emergency rooms in Florida may soon be closing their doors as a result of increased demands by uninsured and under-insured patients – many of them illegal aliens.

.............more

WorldNetDaily: Illegals threaten closure of emergency rooms


Overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration (search), public health care in Los Angeles is on life support.

Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford to see a doctor.

........more

FOXNews.com - L.A. Emergency Rooms Full of Illegal Immigrants - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum


The influx of Illegal Aliens has devastating, hidden medical consequences. We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen.

What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospital are closing their doors forever.[3] An important cause of these hospital closures is the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA).

What is seen is the political statistic that 43 million lives are at risk in America because those people have no health insurance.[4] What is unseen is that medical insurance does not equal medical care. Uninsured people get medical care in hospital Emergency Rooms under the coercive EMTALA that obligates hospitals to treat the uninsured but does not pay for that care. Also unseen is the percentage of uninsured who are Illegal Aliens. No one knows how many Illegal Aliens reside in America. If 10 million, they constitute nearly 25% of the uninsured. If more, more.

EMTALA requires each Emergency Room to treat anyone who enters with an “emergency” associated with cough, headache, hangnail, cardiac arrest, herniated lumbar disc, drug addiction, alcohol overdose, gunshot injury, automobile trauma, HIV-positive infection, mental problem, or personality disorder. Definition of emergency is flexible and vague enough to include almost any condition as requiring mandatory care. Any patient coming to a hospital emergency room requesting emergency care must be screened and treated until stabilized for discharge or stabilized for transfer whether or not insured, whether or not “documented,” and whether or not able to pay.

High-tech hospital emergency units degenerated into local free medical offices. In California, for instance, between 1993 and 2003, 60 hospitals closed because of over 50% of unpaid services, and another 24 California hospitals closed in 2004. Even ambulances from Mexico come to Emergency Rooms with indigents because the drivers know that EMTALA requires accepting patients who come within 250 yards of a hospital. That geographic limit has figured in many lawsuits.

Madeleine Cosman -- Illegal Aliens and EMTALA

Those interested in "facts" can find even MORE.

* So tell me again how it's "ludicrous" that illegal immigrants are causing problems in our healthcare
system(s) by clogging up emergency rooms and having no ability to pay for services used. Or was I given incorrect information ? People working in all facets of healthcare (even emergency rooms) are volunteer workers who we don't have to pay ?

Remember your own, earlier advice: You can't have an honest debate unless you know the facts. *

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Well, there's life insurance, car insurance, home insurance, etc. etc. Health insurance is only one of the types of insurance is what I meant. The insurance industry is huge and only a fraction of it is dependent on a privatized healthcare system.

I think if you limit it to HMO's then it's more realistic to say that a universal healthcare system would pretty much shut them down.

I don't see that as such a big deal. I don't see it as having a measurable impact on the overall economy.

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Screw Change!! Let's have a Seamless Transition of Power and Policy.. John McSame in 2008!

True, but there are things that shouldn't be left up to the government.....Just look at the condition that: welfare, Social security, medicare and etc are in. Just proof that the government should not be in control of the populations health care.

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Anyone who thinks freedom comes cheap, please put the blindfold on and stand against the wall.

Many times I believe Americans will have to take back the country and start a new government.

What's a good argument for privatizing welfare, medicare, and SS?

They're not in good shape, but is privatizing them the solution? There's no profit in welfare or medicare so they are not viable as private entities.

Social Security could be very profitable for a corporation to manage. However, I don't like the prospect of someone putting all that interest in their pockets. The interest or returns on investment should go back into the kitty or be used for the public good.

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Screw Change!! Let's have a Seamless Transition of Power and Policy.. John McSame in 2008!

oops, sorry. I wasn't saying that welfare and med-care should be privatized....Just that they are poorly handled (by the government and medical practitioners) and I shiver to think what they'd do with health care.

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Anyone who thinks freedom comes cheap, please put the blindfold on and stand against the wall.

Many times I believe Americans will have to take back the country and start a new government.

That's just it.

You let a few ignorant and arrogant bureaucrats totally control a thing and it gets messed up.

Because they don't live in reality. They live in fantasy lands shaped by their idealistic ideas.

Idealistic thinking usually lacks connectivity to reality.

As "we the people" continue expecting and allowing ourselves to become more and more dependant on these idiots that supposedly "run everything", we'll continue being more and more baffled how things keep getting more and more screwed UP.

If we all took care of our own affairs better govt would have no reasons to keep growing to help "guide the sheeple."

This is our own damn fault.

All of it.

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3 types; Leaders. Followers. Users.

Putting aside the fact that you are sourcing "World Net Daily" a known right wing propoganda site. You link to two articles by Madeleine Pelner Cosman, the source of the thoughroly debunked notion that leporsy is making a comeback. If you pay close attention to her numbers, she mixes uninsured with illegal statistics together in an apparent attempt to inflate the effect of illegal aliens. LA and Miami hospitals, and many other big city hospitals, are having problems because of a concentration of poor people. Some are illegals, some aren't. Her answer seems to be let them die. Is that your answer? In a single payor system, treating the poor would not bankrupt hospitals.

Maybe I'm not clear on what you are saying Trips. Are you saying the way to deal with people who can't afford health care is let them die in the streets?

I guess I have to repeat myself.

You can't have an honest debate unless you know the facts.

Since you'd rather ignore facts and information that come from "known right wing propoganda sites".

And have us only pay attention to "known LEFT wing propoganda sites." Like the lefty place (Center for American Progress) you sited earlier which didn't even APPLY:

Immigrants in the U.S. Health System

The "findings" of the "report" here, not surprisingly, don't even mention what is talked about in the O.P.

Not surprising that "progressives" would have us ignore these things and try to fool us with talk of "myths" and "misconceptions."

Do explain to us again how "You can't have an honest debate unless you know the facts."

Once again, it seems ignoring and redirecting are the main parts of this game you play.

Which I've grown tired of.

You beleive YOUR propoganda and I'll beleive MINE and all will be well. there's no reason to continue this obviously.

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3 types; Leaders. Followers. Users.

Two things Trips. When I clicked on WND, I was deluged with ads for right wing books, a right wing dating site and a link to Michelle Malkin. I must have missed the ads for Michael Moore and Keith Olberman on the CAP site.

Nevertheless, I read your links and adressed specific points in them which I found deceptive. That's what you do in a respectful debate. I seriously doubt you bothered to read the links I posted.

So...you're saying the ignorant assholes who voted for Bush two time two time didn't seal your future? We live in a part of the world where people genuinely felt for us 6 years ago and now couldn't give a shit about us.