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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Bunz's Avatar
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Independant Idealist

 
Member Since: Jun 2007
Location: Unalaska
Posts: 1,176

Alaska    
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
No good reason?

If hemp was never outlawed we would be using it to make not just rope and canvas, but paper, certain types of plastics, food, beuty products, paints, varnishes, possibly 25,000 or more products, all which would have competed against DUPONT and the other corproations which have enjoyed the lack of competition from a plant which can be grown in every state in the US with VERY LITTLE PESTICIDES OR FERTILIZER.

There is a very good reason we don't grow hemp, to protect corporate power.

btw, it is nice to have you at this forum.

I was wondering, does your name have anything to do with the story of Horatio Bunz and Davey Crocket?
Hey there,
Well I think you and I both know the reason why there isnt a commercial hemp crop, and that is due to the ties to marijuana and the US policy being totally ineffective and archaic.

Thanks for welcoming me, its nice to come around when I can.

My username is a long used nickname I have had since I was a kid. Its a spin on my name...long story. As for Davy Crocket, well there arent any racoons in Alaska

BTW, whats the story on your username?
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AKRON
Posts: 4,679

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunz View Post
Hey there,
Well I think you and I both know the reason why there isnt a commercial hemp crop, and that is due to the ties to marijuana and the US policy being totally ineffective and archaic.

Thanks for welcoming me, its nice to come around when I can.

My username is a long used nickname I have had since I was a kid. Its a spin on my name...long story. As for Davy Crocket, well there arent any racoons in Alaska

BTW, whats the story on your username?
Norrin Radd was the name of the comic book charecter who gave his life to save his planet from Galactus. He told Galactus he would do anything to save his world and the love of his life, Shalla Bell. Galactus, an ominpotent being, needed to devour entire worlds in order to sustain energy to live. Weary from traveling and looking for suitable worlds to devour, he decides to take Norrin Radd up on his offer and gives to him a small amount of the power cosmic, thus enabling to travel through space to scout worlds for Galactus to devour. He also gave him a surfboard and altered his soul somewhat in order to be able to pick worlds where billions of lives would be lost to help sustain the power of Galactus.

Thus the Silver Surfer was born.

BTW, if you have never read the story of Davey Crockett and Horatio Bunce, it is a must read....in my opinion.

Davy Crockett vs. Welfare
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Richard J's Avatar
Governor

 
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 524

United_States     Florida

Re: Why not 50% or 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunz View Post
Hi there,
I am glad that some folks can realise just how large ANWR is and how small the impacted area is. Being an Alaskan, I have been to ANWR, it was late July, high temps in the lower 40s, and the highest concentration of mosquitos I have ever been in. Miserable.

But hey, lets go this time of year, there isnt any mosquitos now. Last weather report I saw had temps in the -40 range and clear. But dark, because this time of year the sun doesnt rise in that area of the world.
The enviros are so duplicitous. They dislike big business and will find any reason to stop them from doing what they do. They would rather sit in the dark and complain than let investors make a good profit. ANWR could be on the moon and Norrin would say the moonscape is "pristine". Oh well, . . . . stupid people.

RJ
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

What reason is there for a footprint within the nature preserve?

Quote:
In the second category, the objective is to reach a substantial distance horizontally away from the drilling location. This technique, known as "extended reach" drilling, is used to allow many parts of the reservoir to be accessed from one location. The major application of extended reach drilling is in offshore operations, where it is used to reduce the number of platforms needed. Recently, extended reach drilling has become of interest for land operations, where environmental concerns or urban space restrictions may impose land use demands. An area of growing interest for extended reach drilling is to access offshore oil fields from a shore-based location, resulting in reduced environmental impact and reduced cost associated with land-based drilling.

Source: Source: Drilling and Excavation Technologies for the Future
Since there isn't adequate 'price information' regarding environmental concerns, some type of 'oil spill' insurance could be required to cover the cost of cleanup, as a prerequisite to any drilling.

Nature preserves should require an additional premium simply because they are meant to be kept as preserves and less subject to fleeting political fads.

The point is, that with sufficient public policy inducement (in the form of a positive use of public sector interference), the private sector could find it more cost effective to utilize modern drilling techniques to save money by advancing drilling technology while reducing any negative impact to the environment.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AKRON
Posts: 4,679

   
Re: Why not 50% or 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
The enviros are so duplicitous. They dislike big business and will find any reason to stop them from doing what they do. They would rather sit in the dark and complain than let investors make a good profit. ANWR could be on the moon and Norrin would say the moonscape is "pristine". Oh well, . . . . stupid people.

RJ
Yeah, I guess I am stupid for wanting to protect one of the last places on earth which hasn't been polluted by man.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

I don't dislike big business and am not trying to stop them from doing what they do. I do, however, opine that they should be less specious in their argumentation concerning their private profit motive.

There is no reason they cannot drill from outside the boundaries of the preserve.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
CYDdharta's Avatar
Moderator

 
Member Since: Aug 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 5,257

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agoodfella View Post
Exactly. Where did those Islamic Africans get the money, influence, organization to begin with? It all comes back to Arab oil.

Look I'm not saying that its the magic bullet that solves ALL of our problems, but if you HAD to single out one issue, that's on the top of the list.

Remember that one of OBL's main points of contention with the US was its military presence on Saudi. My point is we wouldn't even need to have been there to begin with if we weren't such whores to Arab oil.

As for your points regarding exportation of their oil to other countries, frankly, that's not our problem. Its going to be China and India's problem to deal with in 10, 20 years time. Fact is we need a long term solution to get fully independent from Arab oil and no one has fully addressed it.

All of the candidates get up and talk a good game. It's all lip service. And I'm not just talking about energy independence. It's health care, education, tax reform, etc. Every four years candidates talk a good game and its all lip service. Its like every single one of us who wakes up on January 1st, looks in the mirror and says, "I'm gonna start being more productive this year" or "I'm gonna start working out"... eat healthier, quit smoking, etc. etc. in other words, they might mean well, but nothing substantial ever really comes from it.


It does come back to ME oil, but that influence is going to be there whether we buy their oil or not. It continues to be our problem if it’s used as a form of economic warfare. Sure, there are alternatives available for many of oil’s applications, but they’re just not as economical. The leaders of OPEC nations can hand an advantage to any industrialized nation they choose; as long as we’re active in the Middle East, we have some sway over where that influence goes. OBL also had a huge problem with the leadership of most Middle Eastern nations. Perhaps his real problem with the US military presence in Saudi Arabia is that al Qaeda can’t seize power so long as they’re there. We could pull out and let OBL move in and pick up a whole lot more political power over international affairs, but I really don’t think that would be a good thing.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Bunz's Avatar
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Independant Idealist

 
Member Since: Jun 2007
Location: Unalaska
Posts: 1,176

Alaska    
Re: Why not 50% or 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
The enviros are so duplicitous. They dislike big business and will find any reason to stop them from doing what they do. They would rather sit in the dark and complain than let investors make a good profit. ANWR could be on the moon and Norrin would say the moonscape is "pristine". Oh well, . . . . stupid people.

RJ
RJ,
In all fairness to Norrin, he did say he was willing to compromise and allow ANWR drilling.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Bunz's Avatar
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Independant Idealist

 
Member Since: Jun 2007
Location: Unalaska
Posts: 1,176

Alaska    
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
What reason is there for a footprint within the nature preserve?

Since there isn't adequate 'price information' regarding environmental concerns, some type of 'oil spill' insurance could be required to cover the cost of cleanup, as a prerequisite to any drilling.

Nature preserves should require an additional premium simply because they are meant to be kept as preserves and less subject to fleeting political fads.

The point is, that with sufficient public policy inducement (in the form of a positive use of public sector interference), the private sector could find it more cost effective to utilize modern drilling techniques to save money by advancing drilling technology while reducing any negative impact to the environment.
Ill try to address your post in its entirety.
There is more or less oil spill insurance, but instead of going through state farm or something, it is a bond that is placed within the government to ensure cleanup and reclamation funds in case something like this happens.

As for drilling tecniques and it being necessary to have a footprint inside the refuge itself, I am not an engineer so I wont claim expertise, but I would imagine a few factors come into play.
A. Economics
In order for directional drilling to be practical and economical they would need that footprint. It is simply to far from existing pads, which leads into
B. Infastructure capacity
The amount of material that needs to be transported is immense. So it simply isnt practical to drill 70+ miles underground with directional drilling then expect that additional oil to be handled with the current pipe available in that area. 5-10 miles is cumbersome to drill, 70 miles is impossible. Those transportation infastructure would need to be above ground.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CYDdharta View Post
It does come back to ME oil, but that influence is going to be there whether we buy their oil or not. It continues to be our problem if it’s used as a form of economic warfare. Sure, there are alternatives available for many of oil’s applications, but they’re just not as economical. The leaders of OPEC nations can hand an advantage to any industrialized nation they choose; as long as we’re active in the Middle East, we have some sway over where that influence goes. OBL also had a huge problem with the leadership of most Middle Eastern nations. Perhaps his real problem with the US military presence in Saudi Arabia is that al Qaeda can’t seize power so long as they’re there. We could pull out and let OBL move in and pick up a whole lot more political power over international affairs, but I really don’t think that would be a good thing.
I disagree with your assessment on ME oil. If the there had been a more consistent policy to restrict oil to the US, we would probably be much further along in synthetic or cleaner fuels and technologies by now.

Quote:
In 1939, Hans Gaffron, a German researcher who fled the Nazi Germany and came to the University of Chicago observed that green algae split water into hydrogen and oxygen for a then unknown reason. In 2001, Melis Energy, an American based company, built a bioreactor containing 500 litres of water and algae that can produce up to 1 litre of
hydrogen per hour. Who knows what will be possible in 20 or 40 years when we possibly need much more hydrogen to fuel our cars and to substitute H2 for oil?

Source: Hydrogen Research Area
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
CYDdharta's Avatar
Moderator

 
Member Since: Aug 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 5,257

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
I disagree with your assessment on ME oil.
Ok...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
If the there had been a more consistent policy to restrict oil to the US, we would probably be much further along in synthetic or cleaner fuels and technologies by now.
No doubt, but as I've said, I don't believe that would solve the problem of ME oil and/or influence.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunz View Post
Ill try to address your post in its entirety.
There is more or less oil spill insurance, but instead of going through state farm or something, it is a bond that is placed within the government to ensure cleanup and reclamation funds in case something like this happens.

As for drilling tecniques and it being necessary to have a footprint inside the refuge itself, I am not an engineer so I wont claim expertise, but I would imagine a few factors come into play.
A. Economics
In order for directional drilling to be practical and economical they would need that footprint. It is simply to far from existing pads, which leads into
B. Infastructure capacity
The amount of material that needs to be transported is immense. So it simply isnt practical to drill 70+ miles underground with directional drilling then expect that additional oil to be handled with the current pipe available in that area. 5-10 miles is cumbersome to drill, 70 miles is impossible. Those transportation infastructure would need to be above ground.
How well did that work in the Exxon Valdez case? Why is there still oil residue in the area of the spill if there were sufficient funds available to ensure a clean environment?

In any event, why not rely on better private sector market forces to determine that 'price information' for better allocation of resources? Doesn't it involve a private sector corporation? Isn't the private sector better suited to efficiency due to market forces?

The public sector could retrieve that oil from outside the boundaries of the preserve regardless of cost (as in the case of a drug war we don't need).

Part of the reason for better 'price information' is to better determine the practicality of drilling such a marginal energy reserve, especially if it is within a nature preserve.

I am not convinced by your argument on oil transport given the current length of the Alaska Pipeline.

From one perspective, with better public policy, modern drilling technologies could be explored and utilized to achieve what you now consider only science fiction.

I think tax credits could make that type of business venture science fact, without the need to drill within a nature preserve.

Not only would that technology make future drilling less expensive, it could also be used to develop more efficient technologies in drilling and material transport that could be applied in other disciplines.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CYDdharta View Post
Ok...

No doubt, but as I've said, I don't believe that would solve the problem of ME oil and/or influence.
How much influence would the Middle East have on us without the influence of oil?

We already know the cotton gin was developed as late as it was, simply due to cheap labor.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
CYDdharta's Avatar
Moderator

 
Member Since: Aug 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 5,257

   
Re: Political Issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
How much influence would the Middle East have on us without the influence of oil?

We already know the cotton gin was developed as late as it was, simply due to cheap labor.
I believe it would be a considerable amount of influence. We could come up with an alternative, but it wouldn’t be as economical or as efficient as oil. So while we’d be saddling our industry and/or society with an alternative energy source, the OPEC nations would be fueling the engines of other nations’ industries, most likely our trade rivals, with oil at a fraction of its current price. Our industry, which is already hurting, would be slammed yet again.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,349

   
Re: Political Issues.

I would agree with you if our development had been static when compared to the rest of the global economy. However, even the Germans of a previous generation found methods to create fuels by alternative methods. In that same manner, the US would have found alternative fuels that could have been cleaner and renewable by now.

I consider it analogous to the Space Race. There is no private market in that sector as only a public sector can currently afford that market and only by creating it.
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