Personally, I think we'd be better off giving people training on basic 'entrepreneurial' skills than college. The best jobs are the ones you create. Start your own business and you have a 50x better chance of becoming wealthy than by being an employee. The average owner of a successful small business earns a far higher income than the average college graduate.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

agreed ....but, because its very easy for most to go to college, and the explosion of secondary education institutions, and social engineering, standards have been lowered, in fact there are just abut no standards.....depending of course own here you want to go, but if you just want to go, you go..thats fine but frankly, the US needs journeymen electricians too, and plumbers and car repair folks.....so much for not going off topic.

In addition, kids are not provided with simple life skills...like balancing a checkbook etc...but yet, its off to college...

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

yup...agreed.

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Never mind that at least 80% entrepreneurial businesses fail.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

hey and how many folks actually graduate and work in their fiield? 60% ?

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

60% > 20%

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Failure is simply part of life and every 'winner' I know has failed at something. Wayne Gretsky said it best : "You miss 100% of the shots you never take".

The biggest failures are those that are so afraid of failure that they never try anything. In America you have a choice- You can choose to be an employee, take little or no risk, and earn a commensurate (lower) income. OR you can become an entrepreneur, employ people, serve your community, and become wealthy . Yeah, you might fail. So what? You try again. And again and again and again if necessary.

Personally, I'd never be a wage slave. I could lose every penny I've earned tomorrow and within a few years I'd make it all back and more. That is what entrepreneurs do, they create wealth. They don't teach that in college.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

That's a problem that needs to be solved in the later high school years so that both those who choose to go to college and those who choose other futures can benefit from this training (hence why I'm not advocating why it should be taught early in college).

Managing finances is a major part of our lives and yet there are so many young people out there who have no clue how to balance a checkbook, properly build credit, or even fill out tax forms. We just assume that parents will teach their kids, but a lot of times it doesn't happen. Heck, my parents never taught me a thing about finances, I had to learn it all the hard way. While I may have lucked out, there are a lot of people out there who are not so fortunate.

America has NEVER been a nation of entrepeneurs, you are suggesting a radical change in the economy. America has always done well because there is a vocational working/middle class that makes a good living, but are stady consumers and savers. Business ventures are risky, not guaranteed and reliant on credit. Hasn't the current credit crunch taught you anything.

It's amazing though. This ideology seems to substitute for "free market" when it's not. It's actually a really limited market where people only sell things and no one makes things or manufactures things or installs things. All of which are really important market forces, but ones that you undervalue and underestimate. It's sad and it's why the economy is where it is. Yes YOU made a success as a business owner. And congratulations, but everyone owning a business is not the model for the economy. At all. And you should be able to be comfortable (not rich) for being a contributor to the economic cycle and "just" a wage earner. It's how all our parents did it.

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

I agree that there seems to be an Obama hype greater than any McCain hype. Still, in head-to-head polls, Obama does not lead by much and some polling institutes have McCain as leader.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

This is true. I think there is an overwhelming cockiness stemming from the Democrats. I'd even go so far as to say that many Democrats feel they can't lose the election. I think this is a terrible mentality.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

I wonder if part of it is that McCain has been around. He's done this a few times. Yeah, he's the front-runner for the first time, but he's not anything new. He's just another tired old establishment guy running for the Republicans. There's not a whole lot to be excited/hyped up about.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I strongly disagree with you. This country was founded by Farmers, Millers, printers, carpenters, manufacturers of all types of products, blacksmiths, builders, brewers, dining establishments, Inn keepers, ship builders, masons, you name it - they were all entrepreneurs - small business owners. An apprentice would become a journeyman and then go off on his own. This country was founded by entrepreneurs and they are still the lifeblood of the nation today.

Let's also examine another statement you've made ; Pray tell, what exactly is guaranteed in life besides death and taxes? Does an employee have a guarantee of lifetime employment? Only a communist expects a guarantee - the are guaranteed a lifetime of mediocrity.

Your entire post only bolsters my argument for business training - If we trained young people in the basics of entrepreneurship we'd have far less failures, far more successes and far more people creating wealth.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

Well that's cool, free country. And OK, I've been a bit of a dick in my last couple of points so I'm gonna try and take a track from the Obama playbook and disagree strongly without being a cock. This will be hard though

You list a bunch of business ventures but I'm going to focus on
Though you are 100% correct that all of those kinds of occupations existed in colonial America. Yet, the founding fathers were farmers. Agricultural made up the vast majority of the colonial economy either in the form of Tobacco plantations in the Chesapeake, Rice and Indigo in the Carolinas, Wheat in the northern Mid-Atlantic, New York and Pennsylvania (not to mention substantial and profitable landholdings in the Brittish Carribean: Jamaica, Barbados etc.)

Farm size and ownership ranged from individual family farms with one indentured servant/slave to ginormous plantations. However, the founding fathers were the largest farm owners, with huge expanses of land and hundreds of laborers/slaves. In both examples however, farm owners were in a dependent relationship with their workers. The founding fathers, as the owners of larger land were even more reliant on their laborers. Without workers to plant, tend and eventually harvest their huge land ownerships, founding fathers like George Washington would have acres and acres of wasted land or crops. No profit. No economic independence that allows for people to sever ties with the mother country. If there's no domestic wealth, we don't break free from England. Period.

So when we think about the "founding fathers" there is no revolutoin without what would call "menial labor." Now I think there are a million reasons why today is different than the way it was in the 17 and 18th centuries. But if we're talking about the founding principles of the American economic structure and political system, there's nothing without talking about thousands-millions of people who worked in agricultural plantations.

The last thing I'll say about this. If you look at the percentage of the population of colonial America, business owners made up the vast minority of the population. Most everyone else is a laborer. This isn't a new trend by the way. Through the middle of the 20th century, most (white) Americans had access to wage labor and economic comort.

he thing that bothers me (and trying not to make this personal) but you seem to think that the only way people can live their dreams is if their life is this high stakes gamble, living life on the blackjack table of business entrepeneurship. That's a new cultural phenomenon and it doesn't erase the actual history of the American economies dependent relationship on American labor.

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

Where do you think jobs come from? The government? They come from people with vision, determination and goals. I'll tell you one thing - I never took on reckless risks, I was always betting on a sure thing - myself. I was raised with good values. I learned discipline in the military. I attended some college - majored in business. Then I became a journeyman in my field. Only then, after working for another succesful person did I go and start a business. There was never a doubt that I was going to be successful. Too many people are living lives of "quiet desperation" in some cubicle, because they are afraid. If they were taught basic business skills they would not have this irrational fear.

At any rate, I agree that we need lots of laborers. That is why we shouldn't waste time sending some people to colleges. Sending a person of lower "book" intelligence to college doesn't do anything to help them, it only lowers the bell curve. Those people should be taught vocational skills. They often have high intelligence in other areas like mechanics, Art or music etc..There is no shame in hard manual labor. No shame at all.

Anyway, I am not suggesting that everyone become and entrepreneur. I am suggesting we need more emphasis on financial literacy and basic entrepreneurship.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008