can you post some of these atrocities please re: Colombus?


sob I will post my "merit" points....stand by please.

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

I agree on that. Again, though, that isn't Obama saying that but his pastor. And Obama condemned that comment by him. He also explained much about the black experience and how it often leads to skewed conclusions as well as correct ones based on their ugly experience over the years. It has been a common rumour that AIDS was part of a conspiracy (it had a few theories) to kill black people in black circles years ago and still remains with some, and Wright is older, as Obama pointed out. I remember the rumour and its variant themes from years ago.

Then again, plenty of preachers were claiming God created AIDS to kill or dissuade homosexuals and other sinners in their view. Millions still attend the churches. And plenty of them, like Falwell and others, backed Bush and other GOPers for years and still do. I don't see the wide condemnations and renunciations forthcoming but rather the strong courting of them.

Let's go to the Hagee example I mentioned above, of whom McCain has reaffirmed his happiness for getting his endorsement. Hagee has a pile of them. Take this charmer from my perspective for example:

I'm sure Mrs M and others would highly disagree with that. Yet, if the extension application game was applied, McCain backs it and anyone voting for him tolerates and accepts that.

No problem.

BTW, on Columbus:

Columbus Day: American Holocaust and Slave Trader

It's a typical church that follows liberation philosophies. For centuries many black churches have followed that. It's no secret why--for the longest time blacks were not even allowed in white churches and had to form their own (A.M.E., black Baptist congregations, etc) and such philosophies were/are grounded in how to persevere and overcome the setbacks of institutional and social relegation and persecution. It is not anywhere akin to structures and motivations of such things like the World Church of the Creator (Creativity Movement they now call themselves) and other white supremacist things that are grounded in preserving the superior status of whites.

Of course you find nothing wrong with them because they are pro-black; lets cut the crap folks. However, they are clearly indicative of racial nationalism regardless of the value judgment you place upon them.

The difference is we call it "racism" when whites do it...

When did I say they did not have a right to do such a thing; did you read my entire response to OSB?

"Normally I would not condemn anyone for such an affiliation but since he is running for the highest office in the land and may govern a majority white population" - Frank

The church is free to believe whatever it wishes but a member of that church is running for the highest office in the land and will govern a white majority should he succeed in his quest. Do you see where I am going with this?

Trust me; I would only expect you to care if the candidate in question was white and belonged to a white racialist church.

There are many days and many national heroes devoted to figures involved in some elements of controversy as well you pointed out.

With all due respect, your argument here is rather weak. Obama has a very close relationship with Jeremiah Wright - a mentor/protege relationship. Did McCain have his children baptized by Hagee? Did he attend the church where Hagee is Pastor for twenty years? Was McCain married by Hagee? Did McCain cite Hagee as his inspiration for writing a book and include quotes from his sermons in that book?? No, he didn't. He received an endorsement and said one thing about it: "I’m very proud to have Pastor Hagee’s support." You are comparing apples and pencils.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

We need a violin smilie for this forum folks. I do not care about the excuse for the racial nationalism especially when Obama is not facing those violin song-inspiring events you cited.

Just because you feel this black nationalist church is not as racist as Ben Klassens religious institution does not negate the fact that this is a racial nationalist church that demands loyalty to black leaders and black leaders alone.

Only suicidal cowardly collective lemming fools would give up being a majority to enjoy the rotten fruits of diversity; in democratic systems of one man, one vote means the minority lose control of the nation hence open themselves to the tyranny of the majority.

I acknowledge that Hagee is not McCain's pastor, but contrary to Obama, McCain took Hagee's endorsement despite his rhetoric, something that in turn Obama was called to renounce with Farrakhan, which Obama did. If Obama is called upon and does disavow Farrakhan but McCain chooses instead to reaffirm Hagee, that is a bad thing for McCain if consistency is applied. Moreover, it is fair to say if one reaffirms an endorsement that they carry the associations that go with it by an affirmative choice if consistency with this line of accountability is to be argued. McCain even went on to say, in pertinent part: "I am very proud of the Pastor John Hagee's spiritual leadership to thousands of people . . . ." That is specific approval. But McCain also said, in fairness like Obama did to his pastor, that he did not agree with everything Hagee said when reaffirming his approval of Hagee's endorsement and overall approval of his spiritual leadership.

It was in that slightly different context that I raised the Hagee example as part of why I think this is a bad angle to play in the long run no matter who plays it. I mentioned as to churches and pastors that they have spiritual angle to argue, and it's common for them to raise arguments criticising the nation on what they feel are failings. The huge problem with these lines of attacks is that they so often will come back to bite one in the arse because of the difference between spiritual preachers and their points and those of ordinary organisations.

I'm not playing a violin. I'm merely pointing out how white supremacy was reaction background for those types of churches.

Which does not excuse their maintaining of such an ideology in a time where a black man is poised to the win the democratic presidential nomination not to mention having a good chance of winning the election.

The popular "blame whitey" excuse for black racism, crime and dysfunction does not work anymore or at least it should not...

I'll post my answer tomorrow, I don't take lawyers lightly, and am working on it.. ...and I'll get back to Colombus by and by...you betcha.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

The saddest thing about this whole thing with Wright is that Obama was right in that this is the generation of blacks that do not trust whites because of what they have experienced. And church is where most of it comes out, however, what white people have seen as the meanness in the message, is customary in the black church. I am not necessarily speaking about the choice of words, but the moving and the style of preaching.

Most Black ministers regardless of the message always get dramatic, forceful, and loud during their sermons, so if you were to take away the words and put others in its place, you would still get the dramatization in the pulpit.

Although many of Wright's comments seemed radical to many, they were based on many truths and were not exactly anti-American as many would perceive from those sound bites. They were truths, in many ways.

People not affected soon forget that the government actually did give syphilis to black men in an experiment, this is documented and true. So to think that the government would spread HIV is not so far fetched as many would like to believe.

It is also true that our foreign policies, many of them are the cause for the hate and the desire to kill Americans, which too has been documented many times.

So many of the things Wright has said, along with biblical teachings, are not untrue. However, because of the tensions between white and black, and because of our inability or unwillingness to admit that America does need to rethink some of her positions inside our borders as well as outside our borders.

The real problem is that many people take the news for what is written or stated and go no further to investigate or research a topic, we tend to believe everything we hear on the news until that news in a part of our personal lives and it is our family that has their own story distorted. It is at that time that we want the world to know that the news media is unfair and biased.

It is my prayer that Whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks would take the time out to actually learn about what our leaders do behind closed doors that put our lives in jeopardy.

This man, Wright is also an ex-Navy man, there are things that he knows about what our leaders have done behind closed doors militarily, which is also demonstrated in his message.

We as Americans need to stop, take out a moment to investigate the truth and then make our decisions. However, without an open mind, a clear view of entire scope of a thing, or we lose as a people.

When all the dust settles, we will come to terms within ourselves that we have been tricked many times by our government. The problem is when someone speaks out about it, they are unpatriotic. Does this mean that it does not matter what our country does but just because we live in it, we should agree?

Absolutely not, we are Americans and that means we have the right to speak our hearts, and research our government moves and plots, and make informed decision, as to if we have treated others fairly.

Great example: Bush, weapons of mass destruction, instill fear in the people on this one opportunity (911) and get the revenge you want for your father's attempted assassination. Forget Afghanistan, only put a few there, the place that the real killer resides and go to war in Iraq.

Five years later, no weapons of mass destruction! But an invasion that has killed thousands of Americans and thousands of our allies. Our government lied to us, defrauded us, and you still cannot see Wright's point, be they good or bad?

It is a sad state in America. We are willing to sacrifice a great leader that can help us get on the right track because of behind the scene tricks again. This time from Clinton, who in fact, helped Bush destroy our children's lives, the economy (war cost), and families

When will this end?

This remains to be seen. Has the junior senator taken a leadership role in the senate? What important accomplishments of his can be cited during his time in office?

It all remains to be seen. All he has proven to date is that he is a charismatic and talented speaker.

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Whilst I don't believe there is an equivalence between his kind of church and white supremacist ones, it does appear to me that, my understanding that you hold white separatist and/or supremacist philosophies, this is having your cake and eating it too. Can you clarify why IYO this would not be true?