Thanks for the response. I agree whole heartedly. Might be a good topic for discussion on another thread.

Johnny K

You mean like post 238?

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

But that is precisely the problem with framing the election in terms of group identity - the very core of the left-wing view of society (and, indeed, of life).

The election becomes a test of "maturity" and "tolerance" - an arrogant and self-righteous litmus test that disregards policy and focuses on what, rather than who the candidate is.

Most people are disgusted by this sort of smug posturing, but it is not acceptable to say it out loud. "Are you MATURE enough to vote for a black candidate?" "Are you ENLIGHTENED enough to vote for a woman?" What patronizing nonsense.

Unfortunately, that is what this election has turned into in the last two weeks - the ultimate in left-wing posturing and lecturing. It is also as divisive as it possible to be. Unity goes out the window.

As a result, John McCain is actually leading in current polls. That may vanish, but no Republican should be leading at this point. This election should be a landslide for the Dems. Turning the election into a pompous litmus test of prejudice is a certain disaster for the left. It is still time to change, but they had better move fast.

I have heard Obama talk about parent responsibility. To my surprise, he was talking about education, & stated that parents need to sit down with their kids, turn off the video games, turn off the T.V. & help their kids do their homework, & make sure they do it. So he really doesn't blame government for everything.

What was really surprising, was that the left wing media, especially Criss Mathews of Hard-Ball--MSNBC, was shocked by these comments. Basically indicating that our kids problems with their homework & education should be a federal government problem, & not the parents responsibility. So we do have some white left wing nut cases like Criss Mathews that are way out of the universe, regarding personal responsiblity.

At the same time, the left wing media, including Criss Mathews, have been calling Obamas race speech, historical. They just rave about it.

I don't think all Americans are buying into this speech. Magnificent as it was, it still doesn't explain--how he can speak such beautiful words, & then run contrary to his own words, by being a 20 year member of a racist, separatist church.

But this is, simply put, reality as it stands today.

Would I rather the candidates focus purely on policy and character issues? Absolutely. But that's not where we stand as a society today. Race IS an issue. Gender IS an issue. I certainly hope we as a society can arrive at a time when these are not issues, but that's not where we are today. Far, far from it in fact. Has Obama come so far so fast because he is a candidate of color? Probably. It's a double edged sword for Barack which absolutely cuts both ways (as we have seen recently). Has Hillary come this far because she is a woman? Probably. This is also a mixed blessing.

McCain? He's a White. He's Anglo-Saxon. He's Protestant. He's a he. NONE of those qualities are campaign issues (nor should they be). None of those qualities have ever been an issue for McCain his entire life (and he shouldn't have to apologize for who he is) -- but -- and here is the point -- this is the major difference between McCain vs. Obama (and to a much, much lesser extent Hillary).

In other words, Obama shouldn't have to apologize or defend or justify his DNA prima facie. But we don't live in that world. I mean when was the last time a Presidential candidate made a speech which effectively says "you know folks, even though I'm a white guy I am still up to fulfilling the duties of the office of the POTUS..." No. This is simply not an issue -- has never been an issue. It's simply assumed.

There was a time when people of color where not allowed to do certain jobs not only because of racial biases / legal restrictions but because people genuinely believed that they did not have the capacity (intellectual or otherwise) to do the job. I believe that these biases absolutely exist with regards to being President. And so Obama will have to apologize and defend and justify whenever the racial molotovs come crashing in. And in doing so Obama has the unenviable task of not only proving his worth and merit on an individual level (as other POTUS candidates must) BUT ALSO proving his worth and merit merely because of the nature of his genetic make-up (which other POTUS candidates must not).

And THIS is a what is a direct reflection of the state of race relations in America.

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I don't know why it is surprising he would say that. It's a fact. White people say it, so it shouldn't be surprising that a black one would say it too.

I don't arrive at the same conclusion. I think many were surprised Obama spoke so frankly about what whites and blacks often feel about each others' issues and sentiments concerning each other.

And as for the federal government having a schooling responsibility, I also see that as a fact. It does. Americans pay taxes for public schools. Those children are also the future.

When American taxpayers send their children to schools and they do not get their money's worth out of what they are paying for, that is something that the public school system owes accountability. It should be the same with any paid job.

If parents are not making sure that their children are doing their homework and getting them to school each day in a timely and proper manner, that is the parents' fault. But, if the teachers' abilities, the school curriculum and/or the school environment is substandard, then such things are not the parents' fault but that of the schools.

Sometimes it is a mix of both in chronic cases. A teenager showing up to school late, tired and without homework done because the parents don't care enough to see the teenager come prepared for school, comes dressed in gangbanger pants or short skirts and thong straps showing because the parents and the schools permit it, and comes home after throwing paper airplanes and text messaging all day in class and still not knowing where the United States is located on the map, is the fault of both the parents and the schools.

I did find the frank talk refreshing besides the usual posturing and avoiding verboten talk in public that all do privately out of PC.

If one agrees with that characterisation . . . Many, including myself, don't. And even if one does, that is a big boomerang.

Tim, you are absolutely correct. This will be a test of not only Obama, however, but of the media. Barack Obama gave THREE major addresses this week. The first was A More Perfect Union on race. The other was focused on the "costs of war" vs. "investing at home." The last was strictly about the economy and the culture of irresponsibility on wall street and in the business sector in general.

Now how much play will the media give the later speeches? How much analysis will the media devote to the later speecheS? How much of the conversation in public will be about the last two speeches. This whole controversy really reveals the media's near ABSOLUTE control to shape the terms of the debate. If the media talks about *nothing* else but Jeffrey Wright, then this election will be about race.

Tim, it also seems to me that you and Obama really agree. Check out this quote.
Can you say you disagree?

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

And that is the question that has not been answered, or even addressed.

There is still a great deal of fear in the media regarding this topic. It is very sensitive. Obama's speech is being praised to the skies. There is an element of condescending embarrassment in that sort of over-praise - it wasn't that impressive - but it is such a painful and difficult issue that the media is very carefully stepping thorugh a minefield. I don't think they have the slightest idea of how to address those videos of Wright and Obama's connection with him. They don't know what to do - so they pour on the sentiment and refrain from asking questions.

But Obama has been willing to address the issue of race, so there is the possibility he can still address this in a way that saves his campaign. I believe he is capable of it. Whether he is willing to or not - remains an open question.

I don't want to harangue on you, but he DID answer the "why 20 years in the pew" question. And he did so resoundingly.

There’s much more here than asking people to “forgive” or “understand” Wright. He’s inviting people to think about their own journeys of self discovery and their own development of political ideology. Like many people in their twenties when Obama met Wright he had to be impressed by his ability to create a huge religious, community service organization despite meager beginnings and a life history where he experienced intense levels of overt and institutional racism. No doubt over the course of his time at Trinity Obama began to evolve beyond certain aspects of the Reverend’s ideology, particularly the parts rooted in a logic that understands America as, in Obama’s words, “static.” Young voters going through similar periods of self discovery will strongly relate. Generation X will perhaps relate even more as they realize how far they have come from their ways of thinking and believing since their twenties

There are of course, huge risks, with this strategy. Many Americans, particularly when it comes to race but it extends to foreign policy and the defense of class difference, are defensive as all get out when it comes to these issues. The audacity of being associated with Rev. Wright could dig Obama a deeper hole with people who wanted to see contrition, remorse and “disowning.” And while I agree with Roland Martin’s brilliant observation that nothing about these calls for “disownment” are in synch with a Christian philosophy of love and forgiveness, it’s not even about that. If individuals are unable to emotionally relate to the numerous semi-biographical/historical narratives about himself, Wright and the politics of race in America then they made their minds up before he spoke and would, very likely, not vote for any African American President for office. Unless you have cut yourself off completely from the African American community you can not totally divorce yourself from this brand of Black ideology and you can not win the Black vote as a Black candidate.

I'm seriously not trying to spam. But it's like certain people just refuse to actually pay attention to what the man says. And as a result, NOTHING he could have done would have worked. You can say that his words on this aren't enough. You can say you dont' accept his response. You can say that you made up your mind already. But you can NOT say he didn't address that questoin. Or any other. It just may not be the response you wanted. Time will tell if Americans decide to make this the one issue they will vote on and not the substantive issues facing the nation.

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

Personally, I pay far more attention to Obama's anti-business rhetoric. This is truly dangerous. He favors large tax increases at a time when the economy is starting to move into recession.

I agree with his comments about the greed and stupidity and lack of foresight that led to the subprime debacle, but I disagree with his tax policy.

I would agree with most of what he says. Obama is an eloquent and intelligent man, and he does capture what is on the minds of most people.

I don't know what he will do to actually make his hopes and plans real.

So he feels the need for parental attention to education, yet feels education in the form of learning to speak the english language is not necesary. (He voted against making english our country's official language) Talked about a mixed message!

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Have you considered going to the guys website and checking out some of his specific policy proposals?

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

Yes, I have. I take all of this seriously.

He favors a large increase in the capital gains tax - almost a doubling. That is boring and dry and is rarely addressed. But it will slam the US economy and send investors to other nations. It is not possible to measure the damage this will do.

All of this anti-Wall Street talk is understandble, but the greedy people who did the damage have the money and the clout to go elsewhere - and they will. A flight of capital hurts everyone. A huge tax increase will hurt the average American for years to come, but anti-business rhetoric is very powerful in its emotional appeal.

Wait, if the people who did the damage leave, it hurts us?

It seems a bit insane to say, "well, y'all fucked us once, but please stay so you can do it again."

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Fair enough, I'll respond to your positions in the "Obama on the Economy" thread. Back to speech convo here.