You are confusing "guilt by association" with "agreement by association." One does not serve as an active 20 year member of a church while disagreeing with the core doctrines of said church.

There is a double-standard. I'll be the first to admit that.

But it exists now in favor of a group that were severely damaged by double-standards for hundreds of years in this country. It's naive to pretend that the aftermath of slavery and desegregation haven't had lasting effects on those that were devestated by it. White people had a 400 year head-start in this country. God forbid a few black people should harbor some resentment.

But Obama is even suggesting that we transcend this resentment. If someone belonged to a white-supremacist group, yet constantly denounced the views of that group and argued in favor of bridging the racial divide, he should be comended for distancing himself from the views of the group to which he belongs. It's too much to ask someone to sever ties to a group that he has grown up with. As long as that person shows that he does not support the radical views of the group, his message should be taken seriously. If my father was a white supremacist, yet I constantly spoke out against racial prejudice, would my connections to my father automatically discredit my message? If the answer is yes, then I fear we'd be damning countless generations that wish to distance themselves from the sins of past generations.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

I gotta disagree with you, here. Both of my parents are Catholic, but wholeheartedly disagree with countless aspects of Catholocism. Should they be told to find a new religion because they agree with 90% of Catholic doctrine but disagree with 10%?

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

I'm just reluctant to make a call on a sermon when i haven't heard the entire thing. The aids comment could have been said in the context of talking about things people believe that put of racial divides. I just don't know. The fact that this man has been preaching for a long time and that Obama, who seems to be a reasonable person, values this man as a personal mentor seems to say that there is more than meets the eye.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Did anybody catch this part of his speech:

"we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies."

I have no idea what he was getting at in this part of his speech but isn't it true that he's been getting the majority of black vote in most of the states so far? So what am I to conclude, that it's not an issue if a black candidate gets the majority of the votes in a race against a white but white men flocking to McCain in a race against a black requires speculation?


Kramer

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“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

This was an indictment of the racial-lines-story that's been alluded to my numerous media sources. He's saying these speculations are wrong and that black people shouldn't vote for him simply because he is black.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

Fair enough. But I think he should have said something like this instead:

"we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies or if blacks will flock to me regardless of my policies."

Kramer

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“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

You are introducing a "red herring" with this argument; we are not talking about mere religious classification but someone being an active 20 year member of a church.

It is common for people to adopt the religious memberships of their forefathers as a matter of tradition while making the odd halfhearted cameo appearance at a church on Easter and Christmas; it is a different matter to be an active 20 year member of a particular church; this activity implies agreement with the church doctrines.

You made a blanketed statement that said...

I said that I disagreed with this statement because I know, from personal experience, that people do attend, and may actively participate in, the church while still disagreeing with significant portions of that church's doctrine. Obviously, my parents may not represent the entire American population. But if you can find me someone who agrees with every aspect of their churches doctrine, I will find you a cultist.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

You just described the vast majority of American Catholics.


E.g. My dad serves on Parish Council. I'm not entirely convinced that he even believes in God.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

I suppose I could be wrong; an infiltrator could serve in such a role but I highly doubt that would apply to Obama.

However, you still introduced a "red herring" as I was discussing ACTIVE church affiliation and membership not mere religious classification.

Now you are shifting the goal posts; this is not what you said! You said and I quote:

"I gotta disagree with you, here. Both of my parents are Catholic, but wholeheartedly disagree with countless aspects of Catholocism. Should they be told to find a new religion because they agree with 90% of Catholic doctrine but disagree with 10%?" - RFK1968

You said nothing about "actively" participating in church.

I am discussing the core doctrines of the church and I have been referring to these doctrines throughout the debate; for example do you believe that any remotely sane person not running a Mossad-style infiltration mission would be an active participant in the Catholic church if they did not believe in the very core doctrines of the church?

See my post?

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

Chris Matthews (Hardball) had 3 or 4 different guests on his show this evening and they ALL had nothing but positive things to say about Barack's speech. In fact, even Chris Matthews said "it was like ripping an old scab off, but in a good way" to have this race issue brought into the open. He also said that Barack's speech should be shown to all 1st graders and all college students getting ready to go out into the world. Hardball and the guests are raving about Barack. We all need to stay positive and remain focused. Barack is a very REAL and SELF ACTUALIZED individual. Sometimes, the intelligence level and language of this type of person takes a while to sink in. Give it time to settle. I also saw where some Hillary supporters were just in awe that Barack could be so REAL.

We're on our way, ladies and gentleman....to a better day in America.......all aboard the O'Train to a better day. EVERYONE IS WELCOME! Thank you, Barack Obama for your willingness to serve and lay it all on the line.

This surprises you? Large segments of the American media have been giving Barack a free pass for months now.

It is a sad thing that the crushing majority simply think the opposite.

Which one is giving him a free pass? CNN? Fox? ABC?

As far as I know, only MSNBC is fairer against Barack than the others.

All in all, it was an amazing speech. It helps us understand how we can move forward. It challenges us to move away from cynicism and division. To embrace our destiny as a world leader and to unite as one people: e pluribus unum.

Here Barack demonstrates his eloquence in addressing race: the issue that divided our nation and he embodies the solution: a bi-racial individual who embraces many different cultures and offers us hope of a new union. He helps heal our civil conflicts by understanding and accepting them instead of using them to manipulate or set one group off against another.

This is so constructive and so much what we need to hear. He offers us a higher vision. He leads us to MLK's mountain top. Can we heed his call and respond with compassion and forgiveness in letting go of the past and embracing the future?