Americans Believe Obama on Race and Wright. - Page 4 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Alex · #46 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Rational people are rightfully questioning Obama's judgment due to his long association with Wright. Once they start to dig in they realize that he is really just another liberal politician, that there is nothing special about him. He reads well from a teleprompter, but off the cuff he is a not so great. If you want the country to move in the direction of ever larger government, ever greater entitlements, then vote for him (or Hillary - there ain't a lick of difference between the two) .

Johnny K · #47 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

Thanks for the link, but you really shouldn't have troubled yourself - been there, read it.

So then, your previous reply was not just from ignorance, but actually made with full knowledge of it's dishonesty. Given that, the next logical question is, why should anyone believe anything you say?

Johnny K · #48 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

As far as ad hominem goes; even ad hominems can be accurate ...

Merrium-Websters Online Dictionary defines ad hominem as:

Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

Which of these definitions do you use to support your statements?

Ad hominem attempts at character assasination say much more about those that use them than they do about their targets.

Frank · #49 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny K

Ad hominem attempts at character assasination say much more about those that use them than they do about their targets.

How can the truth be character assassination? It is unfortunate that you cannot handle the truth about Obama but what I said was true. You are free to quote all of the dictionaries that you wish but this will not negate the truthfulness of my claims; Obama associates with a black nationalist and is an active member of a black nationalist church. I would suggest that you learn to live with the fact that you support such an individual...

P.S. As I previously said even Ad Hominems can be accurate...

CorpMediaSux · #50 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Obama IS a liberal. But America has had 8 years of conservatism and look what it has wrought us. I don't think saying Obama is a liberal is going to hurt him this election.

Imperator · #51 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorpMediaSux

There is NOTHING that can help Obama more than people buying his books, he is open, honest and incredibly thoughtful. We know that our last two preidents used at least marijuana, and in the later case, cocaine in their youth. Would they ever admit to such in a book? Never. Obama however is unashamed of the mistakes he's made in the past. Americans who were foolish in youth and matured and found Christ and then changed their life will really respond. I guess the minority of Americans who have lived perfect lives would be turned off by his books.

its not so much mistakes IN his past that worry me, its mistakes made accross his past and mistakes he makes today.....

If that perfect life thing was a dig, thats cool,

I am not throwing rocks my man, I am merely snapping back the rubber band....he is a victim of his own hype. There is very little I don’t know about people I have had 20 years relationship(s) with..but in Obamaworld, that is not the case. Talk about suspension of the laws of collegiality, friendship and plain old how- dee- do. Thats absurd, and I think you know that.

He is not perfect, not even close. What he is, and what I have said from the BEGINNING, was- he’s just another politician, who back flips, flip flops, would sell their mothers ( well in this case grandmother) for a block of votes and ship her COD.

He uses his vast oratorical skills and ability to slip and slide, employ the old verbal cut and paste to move the ball down the field....
hey, cool, I mean it, I know how the game is played, I just don't like smoke blown up my ass when something is pointed out that ruins the "image" or doesn’t fit with the obama muzak repertoire…....you feel me?

Imperator · #52 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorpMediaSux

Yeah and sometimes that feel good rhetoric transforms into major change for the nation. The problem is that the American people do not know their own hsitory. If they understood how self sacrificial and community minded America was during the Great Depression when they elected FDR they would understand the Obama campaign a little better.

FDR never pretended America was a raceless society, but he did recognize that America had to work together, from all races, religious and classes in order to get out of that economic crisis. The U.S. promoted alot of cultural pluralism. It critisized Hitler's racism. It desegregated the army. In addition to putting people to work producing for the war effort and modernizing American cities/small towns, it educated Americans about racial groups they knew TONS less about today than in our society.

Obama has modeled himself upon FDR. And I know what you're going to say. Johnson's Great Society tried to redo the New Deal and it failed. It was meant to solve black poverty with welfare and affirmative action. It absolutely failed in every way. Urban areas became crime infested jungles.

However, the Great Society was insuffeciently funded. When you take a look at the expenditures spent on "welfare" programs, it represented a vastly small slice of the budget. More importantly, the New Deal coalition of Democratic voters essentially kept those policies working, churning out the middle class decade after decade. Nixon and Ford dismantled the Great Society before it could even begin to address the issues it was meant to.

Also Johnson never really believed in the Great Society/New Deal the way F.D.R did and Obama clearly does. That was really J.F.K's thing, he'd run on that in the election. His death left old geezer Johnson unable to really address those issues. In short, Johnson was unable to make the Great Society work because he couldn't rally the support of the American people with inspirational frickin rhetoric in the way F.D.R and J.F.K. did.

I don't really take a lot of stock in the power of the President. Normally they are balked by Congress, unlike the last 8 years. And, as the last 8 years shows us, one party rule is a pretty shitty idea. But what a President CAN do, better than anyone, is use his/her power as an American icon to persuade the American people. F.D.R relied ENTIRELY on rhetorical persuasion and it really worked. The country fixed itself. And remained economically stable for DECADES afterwards.

Why can't it happen again. Learn your history and you'll understand why this is about oh so much more than Obama's race.

ha, its on me. I didn't realize till this moment...you're a dreamer CMS, and in a sense I admire you. You see this all as something outside of the normal cycle etc. You have identified with Obama, as you feel he shares your dreams and can make them real. Cool.
But in the end, I would say, we need folks that dream with there eyes open. I don't quite think Obama is the man.

CorpMediaSux · #53 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

I didn't realize till this moment...you're a dreamer CMS

LOL Guilty as charged

Yes, I am. But in my life being a dreamer has brought every great thing to me. I dont just sit in my room getting stoned and day dreaming. I find ways to translate my dreams into reality. Do things turn out exactly as I envision them, well of course not. But not being cynical has actually allowed me to make as few compromises as possible.

I also want to take issue with just one thing, I may be a "dreamer" but everything I said about F.D.R and the New Deal is 100% true, backed up by history.

Quote:

You see this all as something outside of the normal cycle etc

Go back and re-read my post. I'm actually making an argument that's rooted IN a cycle. However a long term one. Since the U.S. went through a major industrial revolution post Civil War there have been periods of economic depression and restructuring that stabilizes the economy/society for about half a century until societal progression and change destabilize things again. We're in a period of instability and maybe before it hits that crash level, we should economically restructure in advance as a preventative.

Quote:

But in the end, I would say, we need folks that dream with there eyes open. I don't quite think Obama is the man.

But you really don't have any basis for that impression. I mean "dream with their eyes open" that's a contradiction in terms. Again, I return to FDR, to come up with the policies necessary to end the Great Depression this guy created govermental systems people had never *heard* of before nor had ever, dare I say, "dreamed of."

The thing about Obama is the only place where he may be naive is he ovestimates Americans. He assumes Americans will be willing to sacrifice in the short term for long term goals like the development of a green economy for example. But considering where we are how can we not take a chance. Things are teetering towards badness and nothing John McCain has to offer can change that.

CorpMediaSux · #54 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

He is not perfect, not even close. What he is, and what I have said from the BEGINNING, was- he’s just another politician, who back flips, flip flops, would sell their mothers ( well in this case grandmother) for a block of votes and ship her COD.

Argh, OK. I am trying to understand your logic here and I really do not. Calling out the internalized racism of his own beloved grandmother who raised him was not politically safe or expedient. It was the exact OPPOSITE of "selling someone down the river" in the way you're imagining. It would have been politically safe for him to be contrite and remorseful, disowned Rev. Wright called him a racist and "apologized" (as politicians always do) for any harm or offense the situation had called. Think of how the media, even the praises reacted to the speech. They loved it but they have said "well why didn't he just 'disown' him."

Because he's not going to jump through the media or anyone else's circus hoops. He's not going to give people what they want from him and he's not going to bend his will to popular opinion. He did not back down when the political pressure said "disown" and he's not going to.

Like a great leader he explained his position, he explained why he's taken the stance on it that he has. He even acknowledged that for some it wouldn't be good enough, but STILL he did not bend. Finally and most importantly, essentially declared, "you can vote on Rev. Wright, or we can talk about real issues."

If you're looking for a candidate who won't bow to media pressure(ala Bush), while at the same time being a smart person who's unafraid to expose himself and explain himself (unlike Bush or ANY politician for that matter) how can you not support him?

Johnny K · #55 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

How can the truth be character assassination? It is unfortunate that you cannot handle the truth about Obama but what I said was true. You are free to quote all of the dictionaries that you wish but this will not negate the truthfulness of my claims; Obama associates with a black nationalist and is an active member of a black nationalist church. I would suggest that you learn to live with the fact that you support such an individual...

P.S. As I previously said even Ad Hominems can be accurate...

I'm at a loss as to how to even converse with you if you make up your own definitions of words, in leu of the generally accepted ones in dictionaries.

We clearly don't speak the same language.

TheLastBoyScout · #56 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorpMediaSux

You can get the complete poll, with additional questions and NO media yabbering here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/MA...maCallback.pdf

For those who want CBS to tell them what they can read themselves, click here.
CBS Poll: Good Reviews For Obama Speech, But Problems For Democratic Candidate Remain As Fewer Think He Could Unite The Country - CBS News

Celebrate Obama supporters! A recent CBS poll provides some comfort for those having sleepless nights fueled by roaming brownouts in the Glowbama effect (self included). The usual reservations apply. hese polls have been taken before the eventual Republican onslaught of PAC ads that use the speech and turn it on its head. Splicing things out of context in order to frighten voters. As Americans are carpet bombed with these kinds of ads on both sides all summer, the question remains whether Obama will be able to withstand that tide. But as of now, things are looking good.

A recent CBS poll found that in addition to overwhelmingly positive reviews of the speech, larger groups of Americans agreeing with Obama’s stance on race and, most importantly, 71% of Americans feel that Obama explained his relationship with Rev. Wright sufficient. That’s big.

I don't completely buy it. I think the whole Wright thing has made a dent in Obama's support.

However, most of us seem to have pretty short memories and the election is actually more than 7 months away.

This pastor issue will continue to be alluded to... maybe even be made the subject of campaign comercials. But, I think it will lose it's shock value. In a few months, when people compare Obama to McCain side by side, we'll get a much better idea of where it's going. Wright may not be detachable from Obama, but Bush may not be detachable from McCain. (Incidentally, Wright and Bush probably have about the same approval rating right now.)

They both have their bad associations to bear.

Frank · #57 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny K

I'm at a loss as to how to even converse with you if you make up your own definitions of words, in leu of the generally accepted ones in dictionaries.

We clearly don't speak the same language.

Obviously we do not speak the same language when you view my telling the truth about Barack Obama as a form of "character assassination."

Si modo · #58 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny K

So then, your previous reply was not just from ignorance, but actually made with full knowledge of it's dishonesty. Given that, the next logical question is, why should anyone believe anything you say?

Why don't you forget about calling posters liars and read the rules of USPOL. Otherwise, I doubt many will take you seriously. I don't.

Johnny K · #59 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

Why don't you forget about calling posters liars and read the rules of USPOL. Otherwise, I doubt many will take you seriously. I don't.

I said your your previous reply was made with full knowledge of it's dishonesty, per your response. I addressed your posts, to best of my knowledge, that is within "the rules."

CorpMediaSux · #60 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008

Johnny K...chill out man. It's not that serious. Even if another poster is being dishonest calling them out is a little over the top, when you can just defeat their argument. Liars are exposed by just a little investigation into the facts. You post a little link, we all read it, the poster is exposed as either a liar (or just ignorant of the facts). And we all move on.

That's not to say you shouldn't be snarky, funny and sarcastic at moments, that shit is fun. But let's try and NOT replicate a CNN/MSNBC/FOX style of discssion just cause those guys are assholes on TV doesn't mean we have to be assholes. It's our board.

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