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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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Fidei Defensor Fidei Defensor is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
1) The tendency over the past 8 years of the U.S. to engage in aggressive war justified by the doctrine of preemption. How? Stop doing it. He could manage that unilaterally, not even needing the help of Congress.
I assume you're speaking of Iraq. While debatable (Iraq's violation of the cease fire terms was the proferred justification) one hardly makes a "tendency." Still, Obama can avoid entering into similar conflicts during his tenure, but he cannot produce a permanent change in this area. Future Congresses and Presidents will retain the war power regardless of what Obama does. And I'm not so sure he'd be a lot different than what we've had. He has, for example, indicated a willingness to invade Pakistan unilaterally if he doesn't think the Pakistani government is doing enough to go after al Qaeda elements there.

Quote:
2) The unexamined idea of "free trade" which, when taking the form of tariff-free trade agreements with countries that don't guarantee workers' rights, results in the loss of jobs to those countries. How? After getting authorization from Congress (it might only require the Senate, I'm not certain), scrap agreements of that kind, pending internal reforms in the countries in question.
Nothing substantive will change in this area, I assure you. Old protectionist maxims are being wheeled out to dupe voters, but Obama is not going to back away from liberal trade policies.

Quote:
5) Mend the damage the Bush administration has caused to our worldwide reputation and relations with other countries. How? That's possibly the easiest thing of all: be a president who doesn't act like a belligerent, unprincipled numbskull.
The U.S. global reputation is far more complex than the Bush Presidency. There has been growing resentment of U.S. hegemony since long before Bush came into power. There'll be improvement but nothing drastic. Does he intend to lift the secondary boycott of Cuba? Will he repeal U.S. policies that exploit its economic power in the global marketplace? Will he stop attempts to assert influence in foreign nations? Will he close foreign military bases? I think the answer to all the questions is no.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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TheLastBoyScout TheLastBoyScout is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by Hafke View Post
So all he needs to do is make everyone agree with him?
Not everyone. Passing legislation requires majority consensus, not unanimous consensus..... and I'd argue that Obama isn't as much about getting everyone to agree with him as he is about getting most people to agree with each other... an important distinction and contrast from the current state of affairs.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by chassisman View Post
Simple question Obamites..........realistically, what do you think Obama can "change" in four years if he is elected, and more importantly, by what means?
Not a whole bunch. The forces of civilization are pretty entrenched. Probably the most significant change he can make is how the rest of the world views america.

Andrew
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
...
2) The unexamined idea of "free trade" which, when taking the form of tariff-free trade agreements with countries that don't guarantee workers' rights, results in the loss of jobs to those countries. How? After getting authorization from Congress (it might only require the Senate, I'm not certain), scrap agreements of that kind, pending internal reforms in the countries in question.

...

5) Mend the damage the Bush administration has caused to our worldwide reputation and relations with other countries. How? That's possibly the easiest thing of all: be a president who doesn't act like a belligerent, unprincipled numbskull.
...
I do not see how these two points are compatible with each other. How can Obama make US reputation and relations better, if he scraps international agreements on free trade? Is it not belligerent to unilateraly scrap bi- or multilateral international agreements?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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DGG DGG is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBoyScout View Post
...
RE: 3) I don't think it requires a change to the entire political landscape in order to remove the current deadlock... He only needs to get the congress to cooperate to the degree that they can reach consensus. It's not an entirely unrealistic goal if you have the will to do it. Obama's style is much more conducive to cooperation than Bush's ultimatims, or Hillary's polarization of allegiances.
However, as he is far left, how can he be better than the moderate McCain in reaching compromises and solutions in Congress? While McCain has a solid record of reaching across the party line, Obama has a record of voting that is among the most left-wing in the Senate.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
TSGracchus TSGracchus is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
I do not see how these two points are compatible with each other. How can Obama make US reputation and relations better, if he scraps international agreements on free trade? Is it not belligerent to unilateraly scrap bi- or multilateral international agreements?
Depends on how he goes about it. However, if he does the right thing on trade, I think it's safe to say that while Europe will like us better, China will not. Unfortunate, but unavoidable. Take a look at the recent Chinese reaction to France and other countries over criticism of their treatment of Tibet, in the context of the Olympic Games. It's very easy to tick off China. We'll just have to live with it.

Europe will like us better, because the same thing that's hurting American manufacturing is also hurting theirs. Because American manufacturers move their operations to third-world countries with oppressed labor forces, an international competitor exists which is hard for Europeans to compete with, and so their manufacturers have to follow suit. Likewise with the Japanese. If we have free trade agreements with these countries, there's no reason to break them, as all are playing by the same rulebook. Even part of NAFTA can be preserved -- a free trade agreement between the U.S. and Canada is a good idea, just not with Mexico in it. But of course, the companies lobbying for NAFTA mainly wanted the Mexican angle, because that allowed the big labor savings; maybe not as big as moving all the way to China or Indonesia, but that's offset by the shorter distance and lower complications.

The bottom line is this. Right now, what we have is a situation that tries to pull every nation in the world down to the labor standards of the Chinese. If, however, we had a situation where free trade with the advanced economies was a privilege to be earned by enlightened labor and environmental laws, we would instead be pulling the Chinese (and everyone else who wanted that privilege) up to the labor standards of the advanced economies.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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AkDiesel AkDiesel is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

Change?

There would be a Dem in the Presidents chair.

There would be a person of a different color.

That would be about the total change that would be done.

We would still have the same .25cent inside the belt way just the tail of the coin and not the head or we would have the head and not the tail of the coin.

We would have the side that was on the underside up and the upside down.

The political machine is in bed with corp america and world corp that we would be told that there is a change but really no change would take place.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
1) The tendency over the past 8 years of the U.S. to engage in aggressive war justified by the doctrine of preemption. How? Stop doing it. He could manage that unilaterally, not even needing the help of Congress.

2) The unexamined idea of "free trade" which, when taking the form of tariff-free trade agreements with countries that don't guarantee workers' rights, results in the loss of jobs to those countries. How? After getting authorization from Congress (it might only require the Senate, I'm not certain), scrap agreements of that kind, pending internal reforms in the countries in question.

3) The exploding federal debt, which I believe to be pursued deliberately for the purpose of transferring wealth from the middle class to the rich. How? Raise taxes and cut spending. He already has plans in place for the first, and ending the war in Iraq alone will go a long way towards the second. Also, #2 above will help by helping the economy, which will generate additional tax revenue.

5) Mend the damage the Bush administration has caused to our worldwide reputation and relations with other countries. How? That's possibly the easiest thing of all: be a president who doesn't act like a belligerent, unprincipled numbskull.
If he could do all this crap without raising my taxes or centralizing governmental power, then I would vote for him.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008
TSGracchus TSGracchus is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by PopulistAmerica View Post
If he could do all this crap without raising my taxes or centralizing governmental power, then I would vote for him.
I don't know how much money you make, but he isn't talking about raising everyone's taxes or even most people's. Given my ignorance of your situation, I can't say whether he's talking about raising yours or not.

I don't think it will be necessary to centralize government power more than it's already been centralized, either. Which isn't saying very much, granted.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
Bullshit Bullshit is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

Quote:
Originally Posted by chassisman View Post
Simple question Obamites..........realistically, what do you think Obama can "change" in four years if he is elected, and more importantly, by what means?
He won't change anything of importance. Too many special interests to please and entrenched policies in the way. He'll just put a different face on an out of step empire with an unproductive and regressive foreign/trade policy. The US is missing the boat, Obama and superman couldn't change that.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by Bullshit View Post
He won't change anything of importance. Too many special interests to please and entrenched policies in the way. He'll just put a different face on an out of step empire with an unproductive and regressive foreign/trade policy. The US is missing the boat, Obama and superman couldn't change that.
Superman, yes. Obama, no.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

I think if Obama were to win he would be able to do more than many give him credit for so far. I am assuming he would have a majority in both houses, his health care plan would have a shot I hope, and his foreign policy will change from some current issues.

But the other thing is that is being overlooked is the intangibles I think he would bring to the country. A sense of uniting after 8 years of true divisiveness, a sense of healing after 8 years of bloodshed. A big step forward for America. A new hope.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
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hairballxavier hairballxavier is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by Bunz View Post
But the other thing is that is being overlooked is the intangibles I think he would bring to the country. A sense of uniting after 8 years of true divisiveness,
Obama seems to be the most divisive presidential candidate in my lifetime.

What do you mean "uniting"?

Uniting what?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
wooyarn wooyarn is offline
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by hairballxavier View Post
Obama seems to be the most divisive presidential candidate in my lifetime.

What do you mean "uniting"?

Uniting what?
How is he being divisive?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2008
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Re: Obama's "Change"

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Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
1) The tendency over the past 8 years of the U.S. to engage in aggressive war justified by the doctrine of preemption.
The US has not been the aggressor in any war in the past 8 years.

The U.S. has been at war with Iraq for longer than 8 years.

Also, the Taliban was colluding with AQ.
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