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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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The Greek The Greek is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

The political gamesmanship played by both the leaders of Japan and Germany serves to illustrate how dangerous it is for a President without diplomatic experience to meet directly with foreign leaders, especially those who have adversarial feelings towards the US.

Obama's inexperience along with this optimistic attitude could make him an easy target for diplomatic gamesmanship and cause serious problems for the US. This makes me extremely nervous.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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SamInTheSouth SamInTheSouth is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
The political gamesmanship played by both the leaders of Japan and Germany serves to illustrate how dangerous it is for a President without diplomatic experience to meet directly with foreign leaders, especially those who have adversarial feelings towards the US.

Obama's inexperience along with this optimistic attitude could make him an easy target for diplomatic gamesmanship and cause serious problems for the US. This makes me extremely nervous.
He'll be like Carter Part II and thanks to Carter we have Iran.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
The political gamesmanship played by both the leaders of Japan and Germany serves to illustrate how dangerous it is for a President without diplomatic experience to meet directly with foreign leaders, especially those who have adversarial feelings towards the US.

Obama's inexperience along with this optimistic attitude could make him an easy target for diplomatic gamesmanship and cause serious problems for the US. This makes me extremely nervous.
Unless Obama is one of those Presidents who surrounds himself with people who are actually qualified and will give him differing points of view, rather than sycophants and cronies.

If he's smart enough to realize his limitations, he should be able to handle himself very well.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
Alex Alex is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
The political gamesmanship played by both the leaders of Japan and Germany serves to illustrate how dangerous it is for a President without diplomatic experience to meet directly with foreign leaders, especially those who have adversarial feelings towards the US.

Obama's inexperience along with this optimistic attitude could make him an easy target for diplomatic gamesmanship and cause serious problems for the US. This makes me extremely nervous.
I worry about this too. If Obama's past associations (Wright, Ayers, et.al.) are any indication of the type of cabinet members and advisers he'll appoint if elected POTUS, we could be in some deep doo-doo.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

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Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth View Post
He'll be like Carter Part II and thanks to Carter we have Iran.
Iran is far from Carter's fault.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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The Greek The Greek is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
Unless Obama is one of those Presidents who surrounds himself with people who are actually qualified and will give him differing points of view, rather than sycophants and cronies.

If he's smart enough to realize his limitations, he should be able to handle himself very well.
If by chance he does get elected, I hope you are right. He will need to rely and listen to those with experience. Otherwise, Obama could be setting himself up (along with the US) for some potentially very costly reality lessons. As bad as things may be in the Middle East, the situation can get much worse very fast.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
The political gamesmanship played by both the leaders of Japan and Germany serves to illustrate how dangerous it is for a President without diplomatic experience to meet directly with foreign leaders, especially those who have adversarial feelings towards the US.

Obama's inexperience along with this optimistic attitude could make him an easy target for diplomatic gamesmanship and cause serious problems for the US. This makes me extremely nervous.
I didn't hear him say he was optimistic about it. I just heard him say he's willing to try it. If I had heard that he felt talk would fix all the problems, that would concern me. But being totally unwilling to talk at all solves nothing either and even aggravates it. That also concerns me.

Many times talk does go a long way. Take Northern Ireland for example. For so long the flat rule was that nobody would talk with the IRA. Clinton broke with that rule by inviting Gerry Adams. The British and American naysayers said it was a 'surrender to terrorists,' etc. It worked and the Good Friday Agreement has been a wonderful accomplishment. And that is with a group that was called a 'terrorist group,' never mind a nation.

All through the Soviet years, the US had diplomatic relations with the Soviets. 'Cloak and dagger' still abounded. But, talk and keeping diplomatic channels helped avoid a war. The US has repeatedly talked with nations with which it has poor relations and has avoided wars as a result and eventually gotten better end results.

Where the US has been steadfastly unwilling to talk to someone, things have not gotten any better. Talk does not always avoid a conflict, but not talking hasn't helped avoid them either. What it has done is keep a crappy relationship that possibly could have been improved.

And when the US isn't talking, others are. The US keeps getting screwed out of trade with places like Iran, Cuba, etc. Refusing to talk also helps screw chances to get inroads not only with the government but also with the people who may change the government's attitude or even the government itself.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
If by chance he does get elected, I hope you are right. He will need to rely and listen to those with experience. Otherwise, Obama could be setting himself up (along with the US) for some potentially very costly reality lessons. As bad as things may be in the Middle East, the situation can get much worse very fast.
I'd hope that whoever the POTUS ends up being he/she would know that they can't possibly know everything, and that he/she must have advisors that are dependable and intelligent.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

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Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
I'd hope that whoever the POTUS ends up being he/she would know that they can't possibly know everything, and that he/she must have advisors that are dependable and intelligent.
Much relies on the quality of advisors and intelligence. IMO, this has been a real problem point with the US, and on a bipartisan level. Quite frankly, the advisors both parties' people have had in the past few decades have largely sucked big time (Vietnam era, Iraq, ME advising for the past few decades, the CIA and others consistently blowing major intelligence issues for decades, etc).
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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The Greek The Greek is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
I didn't hear him say he was optimistic about it. I just heard him say he's willing to try it. If I had heard that he felt talk would fix all the problems, that would concern me. But being totally unwilling to talk at all solves nothing either and even aggravates it. That also concerns me.

Many times talk does go a long way. Take Northern Ireland for example. For so long the flat rule was that nobody would talk with the IRA. Clinton broke with that rule by inviting Gerry Adams. The British and American naysayers said it was a 'surrender to terrorists,' etc. It worked and the Good Friday Agreement has been a wonderful accomplishment. And that is with a group that was called a 'terrorist group,' never mind a nation.

All through the Soviet years, the US had diplomatic relations with the Soviets. 'Cloak and dagger' still abounded. But, talk and keeping diplomatic channels helped avoid a war. The US has repeatedly talked with nations with which it has poor relations and has avoided wars as a result and eventually gotten better end results.

Where the US has been steadfastly unwilling to talk to someone, things have not gotten any better. Talk does not always avoid a conflict, but not talking hasn't helped avoid them either. What it has done is keep a crappy relationship that possibly could have been improved.

And when the US isn't talking, others are. The US keeps getting screwed out of trade with places like Iran, Cuba, etc. Refusing to talk also helps screw chances to get inroads not only with the government but also with the people who may change the government's attitude or even the government itself.
So we are clear, I am not saying there should not be dialogue. I am saying, however, that foreign diplomacy is extremely tough, especially with those who not exactly your frends right now. Obama, with his inexperience, will have to be extremely careful in how he interacts with these leaders, who will be taking great efforts to size up Obama's strenght as a leader. Any appearance of weakness in determination could create more problems for us versus resolving any.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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O'Sullivan Bere O'Sullivan Bere is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
So we are clear, I am not saying there should not be dialogue. I am saying, however, that foreign diplomacy is extremely tough, especially with those who not exactly your frends right now. Obama, with his inexperience, will have to be extremely careful in how he interacts with these leaders, who will be taking great efforts to size up Obama's strenght as a leader. Any appearance of weakness in determination could create more problems for us versus resolving any.
Agreed, although I would point out that many of the American 'experienced' people have really been personally flawed, misguided and/or clueless too. IMO, good head sense, good personality, good staff and good intelligence are key. Experience or no experience, poor head sense, poor personality, poor staff and poor intelligence have consistently gotten the US into hot water in international relations concerning hot spots.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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pramjockey pramjockey is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
Much relies on the quality of advisors and intelligence. IMO, this has been a real problem point with the US, and on a bipartisan level. Quite frankly, the advisors both parties' people have had in the past few decades have largely sucked big time (Vietnam era, Iraq, ME advising for the past few decades, the CIA and others consistently blowing major intelligence issues for decades, etc).
Wholeheartedly agree. It seems that history finds that the finest Presidents were those men who surrounded themselves with fine advisors who gave good advice, even if it ran contrary to the POTUS' inclinations.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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The Greek The Greek is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
Agreed, although I would point out that many of the American 'experienced' people have really been personally flawed, misguided and/or clueless too. IMO, good head sense, good personality, good staff and good intelligence are key. Experience or no experience, poor head sense, poor personality, poor staff and poor intelligence have consistently gotten the US into hot water in international relations concerning hot spots.
Agreed...Thanks OSB

The only add I would have is that I feel better having someone who has shown "Good Head Sense" experience as a leader versus someone who's abilities we have to take more on faith.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
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The Greek The Greek is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
Wholeheartedly agree. It seems that history finds that the finest Presidents were those men who surrounded themselves with fine advisors who gave good advice, even if it ran contrary to the POTUS' inclinations.
I agree as well. Unfortunately, the challenge in this election is to find the candidate who will pick good advisors and will be able to put their ego aside and listen to them when they offer alternatives
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008
Alex Alex is offline
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Re: Once again Obama talking out of his ass.

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Originally Posted by The Greek View Post
Agreed...Thanks OSB

The only add I would have is that I feel better having someone who has shown "Good Head Sense" experience as a leader versus someone who's abilities we have to take more on faith.
According to Obamaniacs "Hope and Change" are all we need.
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