Right Wing Media Myth #2: John McCain has Military Experience - Page 6 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

ThorHammer · #76 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

He has very little military leadership experience, and he has no flag-level or army-level military leadership experience, nor experience in responsibility for creating or executing strategy.

You are right, he did not achive flag rank. However, he did retire as a Captain (that is one rank below flag) and did command men in both combat and peacetime. To say he has very little military leadership is totally false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

I'll stand by the rest of what I said. It's still not relevant whether he was a hero or a fuckup, and this is still no reason to vote for him over Obama (or vice-versa).

I am not voting for him, but I do think that his leadership experience and military knowledge is light years ahead of Obama. That has to count for something in my book.

Imperator · #77 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheStripey1

ok... it is time for me to go visit my mother...

but ah'll be bahhk... and then we'll continue forth on this, as it is one of my fav new topics...

count on it...

hurry back man, I cannot wait, we definitely need more bias ill informed posts here.

Imperator · #78 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

Eh, my bad. Let me modify.

He has very little military leadership experience, and he has no flag-level or army-level military leadership experience, nor experience in responsibility for creating or executing strategy.

I'll stand by the rest of what I said. It's still not relevant whether he was a hero or a fuckup, and this is still no reason to vote for him over Obama (or vice-versa).

No ONE reason usually sways people. BUT when weighed as a net positive or negative, McCain like it not, has the greater experience in that area. Period. If we are going to start parsing, a 47 year old guy whos claim to fame is community outreach and a slim 2 year senatorial record, who surfed to victory in a one man campaign ( keyes was substituted for a candidate that was taken out of the race by a divorce mess) is more qualified in any way shape or form even simply based on life experience to lead , manage etc. I have to tell you is that is such a stretch I don't quite know what to say.

Kennedy had 7 years in the house and 6 years as a senator, been in a war, he went to see Khrushchev in Vienna shortly after his election, know what he said when he got back? ( we already KNOW what happened, Khrushchev took him for an inexperienced weakling, and in effect he was to an extent) anyway, he, Kennedy admitted he was put threw a ringer and had been out pointed ......That should tell you , the same thing it tells me and any open who wants to rationally debate it, sans evidence of absolute idiocy and mismanagement someone whom has been a position of high responsibility and has, even if only peripherally dealt with issues of magnitude is always more enviable than an unknown.

AjaxPress · #79 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Despite McCain's experience with the military he still uses incredibly bad judgement when trying to talk about foriegn affairs.

Fidei Defensor · #80 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

You are right, he did not achive flag rank. However, he did retire as a Captain (that is one rank below flag) and did command men in both combat and peacetime. To say he has very little military leadership is totally false.

Yet, at this moment, 47% of the voters in this poll think he has no military leadership experience. It appears that we're witnessing myth creation rather than debunking.

TSGracchus · #81 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imperator

No ONE reason usually sways people. BUT when weighed as a net positive or negative, McCain like it not, has the greater experience in that area.

No, I don't agree, because experience in the military below the rank of general or admiral is irrelevant to the duties of president w/r/t national security. We've had very few presidents who came into the office with any national security experience. Let me think. George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, FDR (sort of), Dwight D. Eisenhower, George H.W. Bush (sort of). (FDR was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and the elder Bush was briefly CIA director, so they didn't have much experience but they had some.) Nobody else. Some of the most successful foreign-policy leaders in the nation's history had essentially none: Lincoln, for example.

Edit: I forgot Theodore Roosevelt. He was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, too.

Quote:

If we are going to start parsing how a 47 year old guy [is more qualified on national security than McCain]

Obviously Obama is not more qualified than McCain when it comes to national security in terms of experience. But my point is that neither is McCain more qualified than Obama. Zero equals zero. Obama's youth doesn't make McCain more experienced. It might make Obama better at learning on the job, though.

Quote:

Kennedy had 7 years in the house and 6 years as a senator, been in a war, he went to see Khrushchev in Vienna shortly after his election, know what he said when he got back? ( we already KNOW what happened, Khrushchev took him for an inexperienced weakling, and in effect he was to an extent) anyway, he, Kennedy admitted he was put threw a ringer and had been out pointed ......That should tell you

I'll tell you what it tells me. It tells me that no amount of experience in the House or Senate, and no amount of wartime experience except in the top command, can prepare a person for the realities of top-level diplomacy and national security. Kennedy WAS inexperienced. However, he was not a weakling, and he proved that by handling the Cuban Missile Crisis well enough to prevent a nuclear war. In other words, he learned on the job really fast. Yes, in that meeting with Krushchev, he screwed the pooch. Blame it on his inexperience. We can expect similar flubs from any president without foreign policy experience, which means potentially from either Obama or McCain. Which one is likely to learn faster, though?

Pogo · #82 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by CYDdharta

They certainly play both side of the coin.

I'd need to see more than a link to Time to accept that as factual. I have yet to see any evidence that the Iranian gov't is actively assisting the Iraqi insurgency in attacks against American troops, much less assisting al qaeda in attacking the Iraqi shia.

CYDdharta · #83 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

I'd need to see more than a link to Time to accept that as factual. I have yet to see any evidence that the Iranian gov't is actively assisting the Iraqi insurgency in attacks against American troops, much less assisting al qaeda in attacking the Iraqi shia.

Are you denying the 9/11 Commission’s findings that Iran’s surrogate Hezbollah provided advice and training to al Qaeda? No one, aside from you, said Iran was assisting al Qaeda attack the Shia.

jviehe · #84 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidei Defensor

Yet, at this moment, 47% of the voters in this poll think he has no military leadership experience. It appears that we're witnessing myth creation rather than debunking.

Its a fact that he does have Military Leadership Experience. He was an officer in the navy, which means he led people, in the military. So, anyone who answers no must think that he wasnt an officer in the navy. I suspect its just a badly worded poll, however.

Imperator · #85 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

No, I don't agree, because experience in the military below the rank of general or admiral is irrelevant to the duties of president w/r/t national security. We've had very few presidents who came into the office with any national security experience. Let me think. George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, FDR (sort of), Dwight D. Eisenhower, George H.W. Bush (sort of). (FDR was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and the elder Bush was briefly CIA director, so they didn't have much experience but they had some.) Nobody else. Some of the most successful foreign-policy leaders in the nation's history had essentially none: Lincoln, for example.

Edit: I forgot Theodore Roosevelt. He was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, too.

Obviously Obama is not more qualified than McCain when it comes to national security in terms of experience. But my point is that neither is McCain more qualified than Obama. Zero equals zero. Obama's youth doesn't make McCain more experienced. It might make Obama better at learning on the job, though.

I'll tell you what it tells me. It tells me that no amount of experience in the House or Senate, and no amount of wartime experience except in the top command, can prepare a person for the realities of top-level diplomacy and national security. Kennedy WAS inexperienced. However, he was not a weakling, and he proved that by handling the Cuban Missile Crisis well enough to prevent a nuclear war. In other words, he learned on the job really fast. Yes, in that meeting with Krushchev, he screwed the pooch. Blame it on his inexperience. We can expect similar flubs from any president without foreign policy experience, which means potentially from either Obama or McCain. Which one is likely to learn faster, though?

its equal? fine, whatever.......

Quote:

Obama's youth doesn't make McCain more experienced. It might make Obama better at learning on the job, though.

I see, life experience , wisdom, working amongst policy makers, reading and divining foreign Intel and policy for 25 years gives way to the miraculous learning powers of the Obama....and because hes young he’ll learn quicker, uhm okay, how long will it take him to learn what McCain knows and in those areas and others than just picked up by reading position papers?

The Obama transcends the 2500 year age old age of living, learning and the very term of experience…..I need to rest in a quiet dark room for a while, truly the messiah has come……do you actually believe what you said or is it just partisan dribble?

foriegn policy too? ...duuude......

you forgot benjamin harrison and a few others too....matters not...

pass.....

AjaxPress · #86 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imperator

...snip... what McCain knows and in those areas and others than just picked up by reading position papers?

What exactly does McCain know about foreign policy though? Yes he's been around for a while but since he touts his experience as though it makes him some kind of expert I'm deeply troubled by his inability to tell the distinguish who the players are in the War on Terror and what roles they play.

McCain's domestic policy and ideas aren't that great either.

Imperator · #87 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

oh dude come on, I am tired ...for god sakes figure it out….

Pogo · #88 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by CYDdharta

Are you denying the 9/11 Commission’s findings that Iran’s surrogate Hezbollah provided advice and training to al Qaeda? No one, aside from you, said Iran was assisting al Qaeda attack the Shia.

I haven't seen the evidence upon which that finding is based so I'll neither deny it nor take it at face value, but to say that such a finding equates to Iran assisting al qaeda in Iraq is to imply precisely what I said, and it's absurd on it's face.

Imperator · #89 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

I haven't seen the evidence upon which that finding is based so I'll neither deny it nor take it at face value, but to say that such a finding equates to Iran assisting al qaeda in Iraq is to imply precisely what I said, and it's absurd on it's face.

Relatively simple of you wish to take a few minutes, the reports that came out , about 4 months ago, the translations of the mounds of documents we got in Iraq .....the report whose name I have forgotten have the info within, I posted it here 2-3 times....on other threads etc. transportation funds, munitions help regards bomb building etc.

Muyhniah ( I am crucifying this guys name) the T who got blown up in Damascus 6 moths ago, was one of the dudes who worked with AQ etc.

CYDdharta · #90 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

I haven't seen the evidence upon which that finding is based so I'll neither deny it nor take it at face value, but to say that such a finding equates to Iran assisting al qaeda in Iraq is to imply precisely what I said, and it's absurd on it's face.

I doubt any amount of evidence would change your opinion. At a glance, it may seem absurd, but absurd is status quo when it comes to Middle Eastern politics.

View Poll Results: Does John McCain have Military Leadership experience?
Yes	21	58.33%
No	15	41.67%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll