I don't think he sees ownership of assault weapons and ownership of handguns (or whatever else) as exclusive. Just as you don't see ownership of nuclear weapons and ownership of assault weapons as exclusive. Every responsible gun owner sees that a line must be drawn with respect to which weapons can be responsibly owned. I think Senator Obama just draws the line a bit closer to the gun control side than he does to the NRA side.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

That is fine and the fundamental purpose of affirmative action is an honorable idea. However, the ideals of affirmative action are rarely followed to a tee. In fact, it's mere existence creates an opportunity for competent workers to be marginalized. I am against allowing this opportunity in the least. The "sleeping with somone" comment is disgusting enough. I don't want additional fodder for marginalization.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I do see them as exclusive. As Matt brings up, you can't ban some firearms and be supportive of those who use them at the same time. BHO should rethink this.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

But I don't think we can disregard policies because misogynistic morons are incapable of understanding them.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

As one on the other side, I disagree. I have had too many attempts (three times is three times too many) at marginalization thrown at me with the existence of affirmative action. I don't like it. Perhaps we can leave it at that.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Fact: 99% of current competition rifle shooters at the largest competition use rifles Obama wants to ban.

So how can Obama "support" target shooting when he wants to ban the rifles used by 99% of the top competitors?

Or does he support only those who use guns he personally approves of? And just what is on that list?

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

See, I think this is where you and I fundamentally differ. I think you can be supportive, overall, of hunter's rights, but not be willing to support everything hunters do and use. I don't view an overall claim of support as a sign of unconditional support under all circumstances.

With regard to the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, I think it was probably a decent idea that tried to include far too many weapons that, in fact, can be, and often are, responsibly owned. But I don't think an attempt to ban certain assault weapons is evidence of any kind of extreme view.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

Can you provide me with some kind of link that supports your "99%" claim so that I can read more about it? And, either in the same link or a separate one, one that shows that the rifle used by 99% of competitors qualifies as one that Senator Obama has shown a desire to ban? Thanks in advance.

I don't know what is on that list. It is probably smaller than you would like.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

One of many pages about the Perry matches: rifles at camp Perry

As far as the AR-15 being on the banned list, it was on the old AWB, and it's on the new AWB list. Obama supports the AWB.

Note that the ban covered all AR-15 platforms, regardless of manufacturer. So Colt, Bushmaster, Rock River, Wilson, etc. All banned.

Hmmm. How can you support Obama's position when you don't know what firearms he will deign to let the peasantry own?

Given his history in Illinois, his list of acceptable weapons for us peons to own is probably two cap guns and a slingshot.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

I dunno':

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)

Yet he wants to ban handguns in the inner-cities...

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)

Speaks for itself...

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)

So, again, he's fine with a ban...

Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)

I've no problem with that, but I'd like to know what counts as "common sense" is to him with regards to it...

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)

Why?

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)

He doesn't want me carrying a gun...

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)

No problem with that; enforce the law...

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)

Morality and guns are two separate issues. They should remain as such...

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)

At my local dealer, the vast majority of handguns they sell are semi-autos. That tells me that Obama wants to ban the vast majority of handguns...

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

If someone driving a Corvette gets killed in an accident because they were speeding and lost control of the car, do we sue Chevrolet? Why, then, should we be able to sue Colt if someone shoots someone with a 1911?

On The Issues

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Obama's stance on guns is frighteningly clear...

The AWB was, and is, silly.

It banned firearms based on their cosmetic characteristics - in other words, they looked to scary for the peasantry to own.

The author of the renewal bill was interviewed and asked to explain the features that she wants banned. It was truly embarrassing to watch her flounder trying to explain what it was she wants banned.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

So would you be willing to allow federal legislation that bans any guns? Is it an issue of complete and unconditional opposition to any kind of gun control legislation, or do you oppose legislation that seems to be based on the ignorance on the part of most of the legislators (re: guns) and the excessive broadness of most of the legislation?

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

Yes, there are federal laws that ban certain types of firearms that I agree with.

For instance, the laws that ban "destructive devices" I agree with. I do not see a need for civilian ownership of explosives, grenade launchers, etc.

I don't see a need for most gun owners to own fully automatic weapons (although a great many can and do own them lawfully own them today, and not a single civilian-owned registered class III firearm has ever been used in a crime), and I support the current level of restrictions on them.

I support the legislation that bans most "saturday night specials", not from a standpoint of banning them as weapons, but from the standpoint of banning them because they were so cheaply made as to be unsafe to use for any purpose.

I support background checks. I support (and a lot of pro-gun folks call this heresy) requiring all firearm transfers to go through a licensed dealer and have a background check. Even private sales.

But my primary issue with gun control measures is that they fail to address the problem - the criminals who misuse guns.

If you look at the total number of guns in this country, and the number which are used to commit crimes, the numbers are staggeringly unbalanced. Millions and millions of gun owners in this country never, ever commit a crime. But these bans seek to punish them all for the actions of a comparatively few criminals.

If you want to see a reduction in violent crime, ban violent criminals. Get the non-violent offenders out of the jails, and make room for the violent criminals to serve lengthy, near-draconian sentences.

Then, you'll see a reduction in violent crime.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

These seem to suggest that he feels that cities and states are better suited to address the issue than the federal government.

A legitimate concern on your part, I believe, but that's not really a "frightening" stance, is it? It's just vague.

I have no idea. Maybe there's some research that suggests a positive correlation between number of gun purchases and crimes committed. Maybe research suggests that most responsible gun owners don't purchase guns in bulk. I just don't know.

Yeah, he doesn't like concealed carry. I disagree with him on that. However, as he stated above, he feels cities and states are better suited to address that issue, as he did in Illinois.

Those two statements (morality and guns) seem oddly juxtaposed. I'm not even sure why they're put there together. Anyway, while I think morality and guns are not necessarily connected, they certainly can be.

This is from Senator Obama's time in the Illinois legislature. Ever been to East St. Louis? I see nothing wrong with a state legislature determining that it is in the best interests of the state to limit the sale of semi-automatic weapons.

Is the issue really that cut and dry? Which lawsuits would be prohibited? All of them? If so, I'm not sure that's fair. If it's only lawsuits that purport to hold the gun manufacturer liable for crimes, then I agree with you. But if it involves lawsuits that involve poorly crafted weapons that consistently malfunction, then I think prohibiting lawsuits is unfair.

I disagree. If anything, I think it could be argued that it is frighteningly unclear.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will

I think this is a great mentality. The problem is, as I see it, that too much of the discussion, and often times the legislation, is a black-and-white issue. One side says, "You can't ban any guns." The other side says, "We're going to ban all of your guns." The anti-gun lobby is often as overzealous as the pro-gun lobby. I think, as it appears you do, that there is a moderate common ground that can be reached. I think that is what Senator Obama has professed, though I do think his gun-control stance is a bit more left than it probably should be. But, I think many people have noticed this, and it's probably why they call him a flip-flopper and a weasely politician, he's shown a real penchant for being more moderate than people believe, on many issues, including gun control.

I think you'd know quite well that the votes cast by a legislator that represents Illinois are not going to be the same as the votes cast by a legislator in North Dakota because the environments are completely different. I also think you know that these votes aren't necessarily indicative of the way that legislator would govern as president. In my opinion, because we live in a democracy where politicians are held accountable for what they say, it is much more important to listen to the individual, then to try and characterize them based on votes they've made in the past.

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"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised.”
- George Will