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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008
Imperator's Avatar
Imperator Imperator is offline
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Audiatur et altera pars!

 
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Re: Agreeing with the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chassisman View Post
That's easy for you to say.
dude you're killing me, I hve n o ide wre dey stant...
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So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Agreeing with the other side.

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Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
I cannot say- I ahve no diea wqhere some candidates rtrulyy standon som fo thissues as they have flipped and flopped.

This requires stretching credulity to an extent I cannot get on board with, obama has been one thing and is remaking himself as something totally and completely antithetical to his past, in almost every way, yes people change but they don't change several major and here to fore bedrock platforms. They act as the chameleon, the old color waiting to reassert itself. I cannot believe him, I just cannot.

A few;
Guns- now he has a con position ala belief in the second amendment
The war-, Christ I cannot figure it out, he all over the place but the immediate withdrawal appears off the table now, a clear change. He vehemently opposed the surge. He now appears to take the McCain position.
Abortion- he now appears to sppt partial birth abortion a change to a con position.
Trade- again who knows what his plans are, he has backed out and over several previous declarative statements on such.
Foreign affairs- he will go see Ahmadinejad but won’t help Uribe....unreal.



McCain really pissed me off when he changed his torture stance, NOT because I disagree with his new position, BUT because he flipped on that, a platform he fought for tooth and nail her to fore.
Immigration- he now wants to take care of the border first, not quite what he espoused last year.
His ‘message’ sux- I have not the foggiest idea where he stands on the economy, his has not been making statements that appear to declare positions as Obama has whether you agree with them or not.
Welcome to the difficult world of moderation, something Obama has preached since he started. Obama didn't come out and say, "I'm a flaming, knee-jerk liberal!!" His opponents labeled him that way because of his votes when he was representing one of the most liberal districts in the country.

Judging candidates based on votes is a terrible way to determine their positions. More often than not, the candidate isn't even voting for/against the meaty part of the bill. Often times, they're voting against wasteful spending that is attached to the bill, or voting for an earmark that was amended after the bill was drafted.

Years ago, Obama said he was pro-choice, but recognized the importance of taking certain measures and creating certain incentives to prevent women from having to get abortions. That's one of the main reasons he was endorsed by Doug Kmiec.

Now that the situation in Iraq has improved, he began to appear as though he would back off of his 18-month withdrawal plan. Rather than applaud him, the GOP attacked, forcing him to announce that he would stick to his original plan which, ironically, is exactly the opposite of the GOP agenda.

Obama has declared for some time now (Obama's Second Amendment Dance) that the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right. Arguing that the D.C.-gun-ban was constitutional, and fighting for more gun control in Chicago's inner cities, is not an automatic assertion that the 2nd Amendment doesn't infer an individual right.

Obama says he doesn't like the FISA bill, but he was willing to vote to pass it because it's an improvement over the last one? What a stupid position, right? Obama's willing to support giving federal money to faith-based charities because he sees them as a legitimate means for grassroots charity work? What an idiot, right?

The most bothersome aspect of this whole flip-floppity argument is that Obama has, since he began his campaign, argued that moderation is the key to success. The "flip-flop" argument worked for George W. Bush against John Kerry because George W. Bush was steadfast to a fault. No one could argue that George W. Bush ever changed his mind about anything. If it works for John McCain, who, himself, has flip-flopped on issue after issue, my confidence in the American psyche will be seriously challenged.

The difference, though, between the Obama flip-flops and the McCain flip-flops are that Obama's flipped from, what many have argued is, the far left to the center. McCain has flip-flopped from the center to the right. John Kerry's flip-flops were more like McCain's. He supported the centrist position, then appeared to move to the left when it appeared convenient. Democrats are either too stupid to point this out, or just refuse to adopt the GOP "flip-flop" argument line.

Regardless, flip-flopping is, in my opinion, a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Everyone always seems to determined to determine exactly what a candidates "real" position is on a particular topic. I guess they forget that presidential candidates, like any politician, are held accountable for their words. If Obama says he supports an individual right to own a gun, then fights for nation-wide gun control measures, he should be easily defeated in 2012. If Obama works to overturn Roe v. Wade, he should be easily defeated in 2012.

This "flip-flop" bullshit is exactly that.
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