Obama's speech in Berlin - Page 4 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Jason Marcel · #46 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

It's also a pretty far out and irrational fear that Obama would defer the jurisdiction of domestic American freedoms to the U.N.

Perfectly calm here, BS. Pretty far out and irrational huh? He already supports international agreements over our own form of justice. Simply look at Gitmo.

That is because, I believe, Obama being elected will be the first.[/quote]

Come on, look at what Obama said about the death penalty. He's all for killing child rapists.

And there isn't anything in his foreign policy that's different than how Bush undermined McCain twice this past week by finally going ahead with aggressive diplomacy in Iran and finally drafting an exit strategy in Iraq.

Jason Marcel · #47 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stapo

Could you specify what you mean?

Last time I've checked, I thought he want's to be President not a doctor, so what's the talk about healing?

Like a return to actually dealing with countries and working with them instead of "cowboy diplomacy" that has lost America all it's credibility around the world.

Malvolio · #48 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwhistle

A gift from heaven...........do you realize how weird that sounds? He promises the world and never delivers anything.

Consequentailly.......Obama doesn't offer any solutions, just uplifting rhetoric. He can't even bring this country together. How does he expect to bring the world together. Obama's popularity is hype......hype that will soon wear off once the reality of the policies of his administration sets in.

Just listen to him closely and try to figure out what he's saying, not how good the sound of it makes you feel. It's pure nonsense.

It may sound funny ... but it's the truth. Obama's pupularity alone could be a huge asset for American foreign policy.

And seriously .... when you expect to hear substantial messages in campaign speeches .... you have yet to learn how these things work. Campaign speeches are nothing but uplifting rhetoric and pandering to potential voters. Get over it. What do you expect from a campaign speech? A four hour university lecture? Then you would blame him for elitism and being out of touch with the ordinary people.

Jason Marcel · #49 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malvolio

It may sound funny ... but it's the truth. Obama's pupularity alone could be a huge asset for American foreign policy.

And seriously .... when you expect to hear substantial messages in campaign speeches .... you have yet to learn how these things work. Campaign speeches are nothing but uplifting rhetoric and pandering to potential voters. Get over it. What do you expect from a campaign speech? A four hour university lecture? Then you would blame him for elitism and being out of touch with the ordinary people.

Well, I think some people are just so used to being afraid, and are so used to having their country ridiculed on the world stage that they're forgetting how much people actually really like America and are craving balance again instead of cowboy diplomacy, tough talk, and ignoring people instead of working out differences.

ThorHammer · #50 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

What matters is not the freedom of the nation, but the freedom of its people. These should not be confused. We are facing a juncture beyond which is either the end of the sovereign nation-state, or the end of civilization. The end of civilization will curtail freedom for people much more than the end of the sovereign nation-state will.

This does not mean that our internal guarantees of free speech and expression, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, etc., etc. need to be curtailed; these are rights of the people not rights of the nation. However, the right of the U.S. (and of other countries) to make war at will, to make decisions on energy or labor policy or trade or the environment without regard to the rest of the world, these must be sacrificed. (And of course, not only by us -- by all nations.)

I realize from your previous posts that these truths are anathema to you. However, that does not make them any less true. The fully sovereign nation-state is a dinosaur and the meteor is almost here.

But in order for a nation to guarantee the freedoms of its people, it needs the freedom and ability to maneuver even if independent of other nations. If a nation sacrifies those freedoms it sacrifies the freedom of its people.

mudwhistle · #51 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Marcel

That's because it was about tone, not about details.

He did challenge the European Union to send more NATO troops to Afghanistan though.

How come no warmongers heard that?

Tone is only going to get you so far.

I don't think it's important to get into the details on everything but I think if you're going to promise miracles you should at least give us one example of how you're going to accomplish it.

On sending more NATO troops to Afghanistan, I think that just sending a ton of troops into Afghanistan is only going to make the situations worse. Obama wants to flood the country with troops with no plan on what to do once they're there........in all respects start his own Surge in Afghanistan.

Funny how he refuses to admit the Surge in Iraq worked thus he's refusing to admit that something our troops were primarily responsible for worked......yet he wants to do the same thing in Afghanistan.......the same thing he refused to admit worked in Iraq.

He's trying to have it both ways.

Stapo · #52 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Marcel

Like a return to actually dealing with countries and working with them instead of "cowboy diplomacy" that has lost America all it's credibility around the world.

Just the sound will be different and when it comes to substance some differences will remain. For example our (German) left leaning SPD has already warned Obama not to ask for more military help in Afghanistan if he was President.

TSGracchus · #53 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

But in order for a nation to guarantee the freedoms of its people, it needs the freedom and ability to maneuver even if independent of other nations. If a nation sacrifies those freedoms it sacrifies the freedom of its people.

That's only true if it sacrifices the ability to guarantee those freedoms specifically. If the U.S. were to make a treaty that internationalizes guidelines on free speech, for example, that would be a sacrifice of a relevant power. But there's no reason for us to do so. (It would also be unconstitutional to do so if the result was any limitation of the First Amendment protections.)

We are members of a number of treaty-created international organizations already, including NATO, the UN, and several others. All of these limit our national freedom of action in certain ways. Do you see any of them as endangering the Bill of Rights?

Malvolio · #54 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

You guys should be proud to have a presidential candidate that can draw a crowd of 200,000 or so in an foreign city. Like him or not, this is truly remarkable.

Steve · #55 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLastBoyScout

But if Obama were to acknowledge that, he'd be seen as cocky, presumptuous, etc.... etc. Perhaps he is, but if you're smart and you're a politician, you don't show those kind of cards.

The very point is that it's the height of stupidity to not acknoweledge that. He tries to come across as some "every man", and he's not. He insults the intelligence and, as a consequence, comes across not as a humble "citizen of the world", but as a condescending prick...

daddio · #56 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malvolio

You guys should be proud to have a presidential candidate that can draw a crowd of 200,000 or so in an foreign city. Like him or not, this is truly remarkable.

wow... sounds like crowd inflation is astronomical !

Malvolio · #57 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddio

wow... sounds like crowd inflation is astronomical !

it is ....

Quote:

BERLIN (Reuters) - U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama urged Europe to stand by the United States in stabilizing Afghanistan in a speech to over 200,000 in Berlin that stressed the need for unity in the face of new threats.

Obama presses Europe on Afghanistan in Berlin | Reuters

daddio · #58 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malvolio

it is ....

Obama presses Europe on Afghanistan in Berlin | Reuters

Reuters, makes sense now. Tens of thousands is reported elsewhere.

TheLastBoyScout · #59 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

The very point is that it's the height of stupidity to not acknoweledge that. He tries to come across as some "every man", and he's not. He insults the intelligence and, as a consequence, comes across not as a humble "citizen of the world", but as a condescending prick...

Well. Obama is an "every man" in the sense that he has a humble.. and not privileged background.

The degree with which he departs from the everyman is based upon his acomplishments in education, as an author, and now as a senator.

I find it hard to understand why partisans, from the party that lives by a creed of individual responsibly and celebrates individual accomplishment, would cast Obama as an elitist. He's essentially a self-made man who is where he is today based strictly on his own merit.

TheLastBoyScout · #60 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddio

Reuters, makes sense now. Tens of thousands is reported elsewhere.

If the 200,000 estimate is wrong, it has nothing to do with particular news agencies. The figure came from the Berlin Police who were providing security for the event.

In Berlin, Obama says global threats call for stronger alliances -- chicagotribune.com

Quote:

Berlin police estimated more than 200,000 people attended the speech