Or some are able to demonstrate some rational self control and refrain from using it. At least, those interested in persuasive speech will refrain from using the insults, condescension, and demeaning rhetoric. The others, perhaps, have little control over their emotions and cannot see the greater goal of persuasion over the urge for emotional diarrhea.

I think that's precisely the reason discussion over politics gets heated. I can discuss politics with an opposing viewpoint all day long, unless all the opposing viewpoint has is "Bush is an idiot!" That statement only deflates the real discussion and usually tells me the person has no real knowledge of the facts.

When discussing these things, I have multiple motives. 1, to possibly learn something I didn't know. 2, it forces me to justify my beliefs. 3, maybe I can tell someone something they didn't know. 4, to see an issue from a different point of view.

What I've learned from talking with hardened partisan voters, not necessarily people who follow politics, but, people who always vote, is that most know only what is briefed to them via the 6 o'clock news. They have no substantive opinions of their own, but, are led by the media and what they believe most Americans believe. Most dems I know can't give any idealistic reason why they vote Dem, other than "My family has always been democrat." Try to explain the difference to these people between the dem party of today and the dem party of JFK. Their eyes glaze over in about 5 seconds. The best one can hope for with these folks is that they remember to vote early Wednesday.

The other type of dem I find is single issue oriented.

Both of these will spout the usual "Bush is an idiot" or "Bush Lied" diatribe early in a debate of politics.

More difficult these days is to find a rep voter who can tell you why he/she is voting R. I'll be voting rep, but, only to keep out the dems. I can't find any candidate, running for any office, who is saying anything that inspires me. Even the rep's are liberal. The best I can hope for is to keep DC locked up enough that nothing gets done. I certainly can not make any good case for the rep side of the ticket, either. So, I'm left with pointing out why the dem would be worse.

There is a contest here in my state for US senate in which I'll be voting for the dem. Not because I like the dem, he's an asshole, but, the rep we have, Susan Collins, is as liberal as they come, and the Maine Rep party simply will not nominate anyone else. So, I'm in hopes that in 6 years, we'll have someone to vote for. It's a long range strategy.

I look at all decisions one at a time. Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II. Take away everything they say, and simply look at what they do and judge if that's a good thing to be doing. I agree with all of them some of time, disagree with them some of the time as well.

In the case of Bush II, he has hardly made any decisions that are actually any good. Tearing up the ABM treaty and taking the inspectors out of North Korea were two of the decisions he made early on in his presidency, and they were both decisions that set us back. It didn't matter to me that is was Bush doing it, it could have been anyone, and I would have disagreed with that.

On foreign policy, I've contended for ages that it's the policies by Washington leaders that have caused the blowback against us, not the Dems or the Republicans, but both, equally. What amazes me is how partisans choose to dig in and convince themselves that it's obviously the other side that is keeping us less safe, when in fact it's both sides.

What amazes me even more is that people begin to simply repeat what one side says as if that's the truth, like in offshore drilling, or any issue meant to cause a wedge between us that is false.

It's really sad to me that the extremes on both sides are convinced that the other is wanting to make the nation worse. What makes the nation worse off is by denying the truth instead of correcting the mistakes.

I agree that most partisans just look at the news, they believe what they hear, and they close their minds to anything different. However, I disagree with the assessment that a Rep voter or a Dem voter can't defend why they continuously vote that way. Rep voters I talk to will usually defer to abortion and gay marriage and social values while Dem voters will defer to the economy and jobs and healthcare. And I don't even disagree that all those values are important, it's just that the way those sides try to solve those problems are always by doing the stupidest things. Abortion won't ever stop because some stupid laws were passed, but education will decrease those numbers. And on the economy, no amount of laws or taxes or penalties will stop Americans from selling other Americans down the river in order to go from being multi-millionaires to multi-billonaires. On that matter, values mean everything. The left says that if we tax corporations more, we can use that money to invest in job creation in other areas, and the right says that if you cut their taxes more, that will give them the incentive to invest more in the American worker. But both of those ideas are fucking retarded, since you can't legislate how one American will decide to treat another American. In the olden days, if you worked for a company and the company did very well, they'd give you a bonus and better benefits as an incentive to keep producing and to produce even more, but nowadays, if you work hard for a company and they make record profits, there's no guarantee that your job won't get eliminated and sent to some developing or communist nation where the job can be done by someone who will get paid a fraction of the amount without any benefits. And since partisan hacks can't see that basic shift in values in America, there is no saving them.

After making the last post, I'm thinking about some close friends I have who are solid dems who typify what I'm talking about. They have absolutely zero knowledge about politics and even less interest in learning about the issues. In fact, if I attempt to engage them in serious discussion about politics, one will put her hands over her ears ears and yell, "lalalalalalalalalalalalala..." So, in the interest of preserving our friendship, I don't even try anymore unless they spout some anti-rep rhetoric they heard somewhere, then the door is open long enough for me to let a couple of facts spill in to confuse them. They are good people and if they'd open up their minds a little bit, they'd realize their values and lifestyle are very much opposed to the current dem philosophy. It's frustrating sometimes, even. I try to encourage to just not vote, since they choose to remain completely uninformed. That usually scores points for me.

Said the guy who starts 20 some-odd "hate Obama" threads in about two weeks.

If "we all" need to see plenty of "hate bs". we all know where to come, don't we all?

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Of the examples you put out, as a conservative, leaning toward libertarian, I can say abortion and gay rights are far down on my list of important factors. Abortion is such a convoluted subject tha, personally, I'll leave it as a personal choice that a couple, not just a woman, needs to make. I'm all good with gay rights, but, oppose all affirmative action laws.

The economy, for me, is everything. If the economy is strong, everything else is secondary. I have very differing views as to how it will be made strong from the dems. I believe the best thing gov't can do for the economy is to get out of the way. Jobs come from the private sector, not from the gov't. Healthcare is already a mess because of gov't interference. More interference will only make it worse. Unfortunately, this issue has become one which even the "conservatives" in DC are now touting, although to a lesser degree. I'm convinced that the healthcare system we have is going to be destroyed by politicians, like you said, from both camps (with help from the insurance industry, who is the real problem).

I have a real problem with "class warfare" tactics being used primarily by the dems. Taxing the oil companies, for example, will have a negative effect on the economy. But, it's a popular thing to say, having demonized the oil companies. Taxing the rich will have a negative effect on the economy. Less money for corporate America means less money for all of America. Seizing this money by the gov't will not help the economy, as gov't doesn't spend it wisely. It simply gets lost. Corporate America is under assault by our gov't. Is it any wonder they should be paranoid?

What was this thread about???

Actually, we DO talk a lot of politics, and we DO get along. We just don't act the same way as some of us do online, where we can't get punched in the mouth.

I'll bet even Lost Soul is a lot less strident when discussing politics, face to face with an Obama supporter.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Government needs to regulate commerce to some extents.
The economic mess we have today is almost 100% caused by corruption and lack of controls.

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The government cannot give without first taking.

Probably true. It seems there are different motives for those who post here. My motive is to learn more. I think there are many of us who have the same motive.

I have finally come to the conclusion that other's motives are to be some "tough guy" or "ass" because they can't fulfill this odd fantasy in a real life situation.

I'm pretty much the same here as I am in real life.

I want to learn, but sometimes do get distracted by the asses, as I would in real life, too, though.

Government is needed to some extent, and part of the mess is that, but having the government step in like they are trying to do now is like treating a broken wrist by cutting the arm off. All I hear from either side is "increase federal spending, increase federal spending, increase federal spending," the only difference being one wants to raise taxes, the other wants to keep lowering them. If that's their answer, the economy is better off trying to figure this out on its own.

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There is no secret ingredient.

Army "raise taxes" is not Obama's economic plan. Go to the man's website and read it. It's complex, multi faceted and pretty compelling. But I guess it's easier to vote against him if you pretend he's only "raise taxes".

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

I did. barackobama.com. I read the thing from top to bottom. And under economy he lists 10s of billions of dollars in spending programs, increase taxes on upper incomes and corporations while removing more than 20 million people, low income earners and elderly, from paying any taxes. Yes, there is more. But basically, "increase federal spending, increase federal spending, increase federal spending."

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There is no secret ingredient.

No, but it's obvious you do.

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It's hard to stay mad at someone who makes you laugh - Jay Leno

In a nut-shell, Obama's platform is "America Sucks and I want to fix it".

That's it.

Problem is his solutions have been tried in Europe for many years and they are currently in the process of rejecting them.....because they don't work.

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It's hard to stay mad at someone who makes you laugh - Jay Leno

Thank God the discussion has been elevated to "I know you are but what am I?"

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Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.