As passionate as many of you are in supporting Obama, there is still something that unnerves me about him, that until recently I have been unable to identify.

Obama is very intelligent. In fact, I would go so far as to say if I were running for President, I would run a campaign similar to Obama's.

That comparison is what unnerves me about Obama. While I personally value my freedom and liberty, I am much more pragmatic and authoritarian inclined when given power. Frankly, realpolitik is the only way to effectively rule. Perhaps I have been around too many brilliant backstabbers, lol?


That said, I am more concerned for my own liberty than I am for improving government programs. As a result, my intuition is warning me against voting for Obama. At this point, all the policy positions in the world would not change my mind. While some people may get off voting for a third party candidate, I am too pragmatic to waste my time on such a task. So, as much as I dislike doing this, I will be pulling the lever for McCain, if only as a double-vote against Obama.

Sorry Democrats...

__________________
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
- Milton Friedman

"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it."
- George Orwell

*sits up and pays attention to the Eagle 7*



i had no idear that you were such a fascinatin' individual matey. as matter 'o fact, suddenly all things related to the economy, to our foreign policy....to senator mccain, senator obama, governor palin, and senator biden seem small.

i find those topics no longer intrest me any longer, they've lost thar luster.

tell me more 'bout how you see yourself, in comparison to barrack obama.

this pirate would particularly like to hear more about how you'd run your campaign for the presidency 'o the united states, and how your strategy would mirror his. you used the word "similar", but its the differences in the two of you that i want to hear more about.

also, could you expand on how yer take on mr. obama's intellect? i kinda find yer really puttin' yerself out thar, to say your campaign would be akin to his.

i'd like to hear more about you, matey.

*grabs his popcorn, takes his pirate hat off, and sits up ondeck eagerly*

-MeadHallPirate

So your saying, confronted by a crisis, you prefer an incompetent because you're afraid that if the government is competent, they may actually solve the problems and have free time and ability to create new problems.

Of course, as recent history shows, the "not-so smart" one may decide to listen to someone with authoritarian dreams. Then you end up with the worst of both worlds, old problems and reduced liberties.

Wouldn't improving gov't programs, or at least some of them, help you with your freedom?

I've been reading about this new book that a journalist wrote, his second effort focusing on the NSA wiretaps. In it he interviews former gov't officials hired in the jobs of listening into specific overseas conversations. They talked about being assigned to listen in on our troops while they were stationed in Iraq as they talked to their loved ones back home. They would listen to couples having phone sex.

The idea of those wiretaps already made me raving mad. And the idea that it's already been abused a countless number of times infuriates me.

I hope Obama has the good sense to sunset that provision of the Patriot Act. And close down Gitmo and the other secret torture prisons.

Not out of left or right, but out of principle and because of long-established laws and international treaties that we had been instrumental in designing in the first place.

Are you projecting onto Obama that since he's a winner, what makes you afraid of him is that to win means he gets the freedom to get drunk on power? Or that because he's popular even with moderates and some conservatives that that's troubling?

My one big problem with Obama is that I would appreciate some real candor in terms of actually declaring the kinds of sacrifices that are needed at this moment. Cuts in spending. A drawdown of forces in Iraq. A real plan and a deadline for Afghanistan. Spending cuts.

I want to see taxes go down, but we have to get things in order first and that may require some tax increases if the spending cuts aren't enough to get us there. I have a sneaking feeling that Obama knows this much. Any rational person knows that the country will be better off tightening it's belt and becoming far more disciplined on spending in the coming two or three years in order to get through this mess better.

What unnerved me first about Obama early on was that he seems a little too cool for the times we're in. But as the summer months past and the fall campaign got crazy and the economy imploded, his temperament and intellect really do stand out. It's not an act. Like John McCain, Obama has the ability to walk into a divided room and find allies in most any faction and then work from that point. If only McCain had listened to himself and really lead his party instead of deferring to the neo-cons, we might have been treated to a far more substantive and thought-provoking campaign instead of dealing with all the melodrama we ended up getting.

The country loves a good moderate who can successfully navigate the centre, drifting just a little right and then a little left when need be. Reagan and Clinton did it well, and Bush I actually didn't do such a bad job. Obama seems to have the potential to be in their company, and more than any of those guys, he seems to have no "hate-on" for anyone. I thought it was remarkable that Chuck Hagel of all people has become a buddy of his, and accompanied him on his overseas trip a few months ago. And that Dick Luger gets along with him just fine. And that the Eisenhowers gave him the thumbs up, and George Will has been very kind to him, and even Christopher Buckley.

I don't think it's fair to say that Obama supporters are just so in love with him that they can't see the flaws. The "messiah" and "the one" bullshit has come out of the right since they're jealous that Obama is having that personal effect on moderate voters that Clinton and Reagan had. It's a crowd that's hard to pin down, but when you reach them and they like you, they'll forgive you your trespasses, and that infuriates the far right.

I'll hold Obama up to the same standards as anyone else, judging him from decision to decision, defending him when he does the right thing, and pointing out the mistakes.

I'd prefer more fiscal conservatism, but the idea of flushing out the neo-cons and starting over again with a President whose economic and foreign policy teams are a much wiser and educated bunch than the Bush team gives us all reason to believe that things won't be as dreadful as they've gotten.

__________________
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."-Sarah Palin, not having a clue once again about what she is talking about.

Essentially, yes. It would be even better if the incompetents split the government between the two parties. Then, even less gets done.

As recent history also shows, government has gotten together and spent $800 billion of our money to no effect, while simultaneous setting dangerous precedents for the Fed. I'd much prefer if we had leaders who could never conceive of a such a plan.


And Mr. Pirate sir, I don't mean to ignore your post, but do I detect a hint of sarcasm. I am not trying to exaggerate my own brain, but rather just implying that my armchair politician self can admire the effectiveness of Obama's campaign. How would my campaign be different? For starters, I would've dumped my more questionable friends long before the election started. Second, rather than grandstanding throughout Europe at great expense and little effect, I would've gone on a "Martin Luther King" tour, ending with a massive speech in Washington DC mimicking King's "I have a dream" speech, and bus people in from around the country. Obama has really failed to portray how his victory will be the crowning glory of the civil rights movement. His third biggest mistake, methinks, is his abandonment of Hillary. By failing to consolidate the disenfranchised Hillary supporters, he gave McCain an opening. Luckily for Obama, the crashing economy has prevented McCain from exploiting any of the holes for long.

But as I mentioned, I am but a lowly armchair pol...

__________________
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
- Milton Friedman

"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it."
- George Orwell

Obama doesn't have to portray anything.

The idea that he's been chosen more for his remarkable way of understanding the grays of things has gotten millions of people past the idea of whether he's white or black.

It's been said that every new President is elected because they have something the one before them lacked. It's not Bush's lack of blackness that is Obama's strength, but Bush's lack of gray.

That Obama feeds that longing in so many people to have a President who doesn't have an axe to grind against others and whose open to the dissenting opinions in the room makes him attractive to many.

The crowning achievement of the civil rights movement is that his skin color has ended up going without saying among millions upon millions of people.

__________________
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."-Sarah Palin, not having a clue once again about what she is talking about.

This makes no sense after seeing how the republicans view civil liberties. The vast majority of cons believe it is alright for the government to lock someone up indefinatly if they are suspected of being a "terrorist" or "enemy combatant". I Agree with you on the civil liberties aspect, it's the main reason I can't stand George Bush. The official republican view is that you can lock people up without being accused, and torture them, if they are suspected of the right crime. Of course they don't call it torture, they simply redefine it so that you must intentionally cause organ failure to be considered torture. That's the official Bush policy people.

That's alright though. Despite my fervent hatred of Bush. And my honest belief that if a devil exists, that man is a servant of it, McCain is no Bush. Republicans in general aren't Bush, unfortunately the majority of them (not vast though, just that "base" we hear so much about) do agree with inherently "evil" policies. Like torture, forced religion, indefinite suspension of Habius Corpus (which in effect destroys every other right, without Habius Corpus--no other right can be guarunteed, as the government can lock you up at will, indefinatly) etc. Not all of course, most of the cons hear don't subscribe to these policies, but some do. I do hesitate to call a policy evil, but that's the only way I can describe these, and they are official Bush policies, supported by the Republican base.

At the end of the day though McCain is a moderate Republican. My ideological disagreements with his policies revolve around issues like tax policy and abortion, they do not make my gut wrench thinking they will be imposed. Overall, unlike Bush who I think does not give a rats ass for this country and is simply an evil SOB, McCain is a decent man with his best interests at heart. I just think he will do more harm to the country with his policies. So voting for McCain I honestly understand that choice.

I still don't understand a person could cast a vote for Bush though. And then in the same breath Curse Iran, when Bush would if he could create a Christian Theocracy not too unlike Iran.

I trust McCain's experiences in Vietnam have shaped his attitudes towards torture. I do think you exaggerate Bush's religiosity, considering how little he achieved for fundamentalists after 6 years of a friendly congress. I mean, religiously, the US isn't all too different from 10 years ago. But that's a null point now, since Bush is almost done. And perhaps the Patriot Act is too?

I'm more just relieved we can all discuss this without wanting to behead eachother

__________________
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
- Milton Friedman

"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it."
- George Orwell

ahoy mighty eagle7!!!!!! avast ye!

nay matey, no sarcasm meant, its just me seafarin' way 'o puttin' me thoughts together. i apologize though, if ye thought i was makin' fun of ye, fer thats not me way 'o doin' things on the good ship USPOL.

thanks fer respondin', thought yer post was provactive (but not in a bad way, RAWR).

*bows*

-MeadHallPirate

Shouldn't you be asking why Obama didn't have the "good sense" to oppose them to begin with?

How about because he can be dishonest so smoothly about so many topics? Just as an example last night, he asserted that every McCain ad was a negative ad. It was untrue, but spoken with great conviction.

He's just the same old politician wrapped in a shiny new package. Same dishonesty, same willingness to promise things he knows he can't and/or won't do just to get elected.

There are a few here who are just like this. Your fellow countryman Danny is a good example. I don't believe I've ever read a single word from Danny questioning anything about Obama following Danny's Ron Paul to Obama conversion.

When do you plan to start this, so I can make a note of it

Wouldn't improving gov't programs, or at least some of them, help you with your freedom?

No, elimination of most federal programs would help me with my freedom. That way I would have the freedom to reside in a state who's laws, tax structure, and programs made sense to me.

__________________

I needs government help to live.
I must be a liberal.

Obama was never campaigning as a champion of civil rights. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with race baiting bigots like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? You can always use your vote to write them on your ballot.

__________________
Is our children learning? -George W. Bush

"I think—tide turning—see, as I remember—I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of—it's easy to see a tide turn—did I say those words?"—Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

That was my point. It is not a matter of being comfortable, it is a matter of winning the election. Obama's decision NOT to run as a champion of civil rights has hurt him more than it has helped him.

You don't seem to get the point of my post? It is not a matter of what I'm comfortable with or what I like. It is a matter of what Obama needs to do to win.

Also, like I said, Obama is lucky that the economy is collapsing, for it is covering for his mistakes. If the economy were booming for the past month instead of collapsing, this election would be much closer. Thanks to the economy, McCain didn't have the chance to woo any uneasy Democrats, nor did he have the focus the mount any coordinated attack on Obama.

__________________
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
- Milton Friedman

"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it."
- George Orwell

Well, I disagree that coming out as the champion of the civil rights movement would have been a good electoral strategy for Obama, precisely because he's black. He knows, I think, that this is a strike against him from the start, not fatal but requiring that he appeal to the majority of voters, and not emphasize black issues. Watching the debate last night, I found I was paying attention to what he was saying and what McCain was saying, and not really noticing his race at all. I'm sure that's the effect he's looking for. Talking all the time about the problems of black people is not the way to achieve that, nor in fact are those issues (though important) the main ones confronting the nation at this time.

On the subject of intelligence and competence, what EagleSeven seems to be saying is that he prefers a hamstrung government that poses less danger of tyranny to a capable one that can handle the nation's collective problems effectively, and so he will vote for McCain because McCain is less capable, and also because the Democrats are sure to retain (and almost sure to deepen) their control of Congress, so a Republican president would make for a divided government, thus one weaker still. Please correct me, E7, if I'm mistaken in that understanding.

I might even agree with this reasoning if I thought we were living in a time when the basic challenge environment facing us as individuals was something that could be navigated easily, and that if government would just get out of the way, we could make everything hunky-dory. I don't, though. Our national institutions, which create that basic challenge environment, are essentially those put in place in the 1930s and 1940s: a market economy with government oversight and some social welfare programs, and in foreign relations, superpower status with a strong military. That served us very well in the 1950s and 1960s. It's failing now, as is our oil-based energy economy. There's a need to retool and craft a new institutional platform, just as was the case during the Great Depression. (Or the Civil War for that matter, or the American Revolution. We confront this stuff periodically, as material circumstances change and our institutions cease to function well.)

In a time like this, divided and ineffective government becomes an unaffordable luxury.

Mind elaborating? I'm just wondering how you came to this conclusion because I basically feel the same way and that's why I'm voting for Obama.