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Thread: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

  1. #16
    Sadanie is offline Secretary of Defense
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
    No argument there. But isn't it our jobs in the public to: 1) do our own investigation, and 2) call them out for spin and especially falsehoods?

    It seems Kyl did make an outright lie and hit job on the Congressional floor, and that's unacceptable conduct. He's using the public time and dime--speaking of public funds--to lie to me and the rest of the public. It wasn't a subjective and arguable point of view or even a spin...it was simply an outright falsehood, and one seemingly done for partisan purposes (IMO because it endorses Dems given hostile GOP receptions to it) and the anti-abortion segment and now spending cutters of the GOP has made it into a bogeyman that fits conveniences of internal politics and point of view.

    I recognise partisanship, but the real ultimate end is for politicians and the public to get things right, and this falsehood may very well be one that can lead to harmful results if the actual facts aren't examined properly for honest debating.

    This is what Planned Parenthood claims it actually does in percentages:



    Auditing its published numbers would be legitimate and it might or might not move a little bit if that's done, but what Kyl did was simply flagrantly lie to the public about it as if it's some sort of specialist abortion clinic. It's clearly anything but that insofar as women's care.

    Obviously any spending cut provides the obvious benefit of not spending the money, but there are also cons to such moves. Planned Parenthood generally serves the poor, and if such treatments become unavailable, the costs of that must also be examined.

    To add to your point in your post, though, I also got annoyed with FOX News claiming Walmart does pap smears in the smear job on Planned Parenthood, etc. FOX is a GOP shill, MSNBC is the Dems' counter to FOX, CCN want to talk Paris Hilton rather than Paris or how Hilton hotels are performing, etc...unless one turns to CNN International where non-US people actually expect proper news, an embarrassing statement as to what's going on inside the US insofar as standards. The American 'news' absolutely sucks anymore in partisan spin and entertainment news, etc. It's why I regularly just go to the BBC and other non-US sources to actually see what are the real facts going on in the US. That's how sad the 'low information/high disinformation' pattern has gotten in here in political and news discourse.

    As usual, you are right on all points!
    Maybe you should just right a daily column for us with facts and common sense!
    It sure would make it easier to surf these political lies!
    Thanks!

  2. #17
    eohrnberger's Avatar
    eohrnberger is offline Secretary of State
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    Quote Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
    So, the guy comes right our and SAYS he is a lying sack of shit, and your reply it is "eh...they both do it"

    That's one of the things that really gets to me about pubs. Just what does a Republican have to DO before other pubs will say he was wrong?
    So my response would have been more acceptable if I had also stated condemnation of Kyl's behavior?

    OK. I condemn Kyl's behavior.

    No argument here on that point.

    There is good leadership, which doesn't distort or lie but tells it like it is, and then there's political leadership which distorts or lies to great extremes.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Just how many times do we collectively get fooled by these guys?

    It's time to put blind partisanship behind us, we can no longer afford it. Put numbers to it, measure it incessantly, and measure our leaders by these numbers.
    If a man were behind four months on his mortgage and was talking to you about his plans to build an addition on his home you would think him daft and delusional. But in Washington, ignoring a current crisis to discuss grand dreams is called “boldness” and “vision.”

  3. #18
    LJ2
    LJ2 is offline Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearman View Post
    Wow! You found one I guess the ladies in the 27 states reported on already will just have to fly to Iowa to get a mammogram. Pwned?
    Goober didn't find anything. As Sailorman pointed out, the very link goober gave said, "...we will assist you in setting up an appointment with a local medical provider for your FREE screening."
    I don't know what the term is in Austrian.

  4. #19
    Commodore's Avatar
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    So, not being a women, what services does PP provide that are not funded under Mediaid?

  5. #20
    Quinn is offline Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    So my response would have been more acceptable if I had also stated condemnation of Kyl's behavior?

    OK. I condemn Kyl's behavior.

    No argument here on that point.
    imho, challenging the more blatant untruths is a good place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    There is good leadership, which doesn't distort or lie but tells it like it is, and then there's political leadership which distorts or lies to great extremes.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Just how many times do we collectively get fooled by these guys?

    It's time to put blind partisanship behind us, we can no longer afford it. Put numbers to it, measure it incessantly, and measure our leaders by these numbers.
    Bravo.

    "The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might, and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without. We need law and order! Without it our nation cannot survive." - Adolf Hitler, 1932
    When a propagandist warns members of her audience that disaster will result if they do not follow a particular course of action, she is using the fear appeal. By playing on the audience's deep-seated fears, practitioners of this technique hope to redirect attention away from the merits of a particular proposal and toward steps that can be taken to reduce the fear.

    This technique can be highly effective when wielded by a fascist demagogue, but it is typically used in less dramatic ways. Consider the following:

    • A television commercial portrays a terrible automobile accident (the fear appeal), and reminds viewers to wear their seat-belts (the fear-reducing behavior).
    • A pamphlet from an insurance company includes pictures of houses destroyed by floods (the fear appeal), and follows up with details about home-owners' insurance (the fear-reducing behavior).
    • A letter from a pro-gun organization begins by describing a lawless America in which only criminals own guns (the fear appeal), and concludes by asking readers to oppose a ban on automatic weapons (the fear-reducing behavior).

    Since the end of the second world war, social psychologists and communication scholars have been conducting empirical studies in order to learn more about the effectiveness of fear appeals. Some have criticized the conceptualization of the studies, and others have found fault with the experimental methods, but the general conclusions are worth considering, if not accepting.

    • "All other things being equal, the more frightened a person is by a communication, the more likely her or she is to take positive preventive action."(Pratkanis and Aronson, 1991)
    • Fear appeals will not succeed in altering behavior if the audience feels powerless to change the situation.
    • Fear appeals are more likely to succeed in changing behavior if they contain specific recommendations for reducing the threat that the audience believes are both effective and doable.

    In summary, there are four elements to a successful fear appeal: 1) a threat, 2) a specific recommendation about how the audience should behave, 3) audience perception that the recommendation will be effective in addressing the threat, and 4) audience perception that they are capable of performing the recommended behavior.

    When fear appeals do not include all four elements, they are likely to fail. Pratkanis and Aronson provide the example of the anti-nuclear movement, which successfully aroused public fear of nuclear war, but offered few specific recommendations that people perceived as effective or doable. By contrast, fall-out shelters were enormously popular during the 1950s because people believed that shelters would protect them from nuclear war, and installing a shelter was something that they could do.

    In a similar fashion, during the 1964 campaign, Lyndon Johnson was said to have swayed many voters with a well-known television commercial that portrayed a young girl being annihilated in a nuclear blast. This commercial linked nuclear war to Barry Goldwater (Johnson's opponent), and proposed a vote for Johnson as an effective, doable way of avoiding the threat.

    In contemporary politics, the fear-appeal continues to be widespread. When a politician agitates the public's fear of immigration, or crime, and proposes that voting for her will reduce the threat, she is using this technique. When confronted with persuasive messages that capitalize on our fear, we should ask ourselves the following questions:

    Propaganda Critic: Special apeals > Fear appeal
    Long story short (from the above piece):

    • Is the speaker exaggerating the fear or threat in order to obtain my support?
    • How legitimate is the fear that the speaker is provoking?
    • Will performing the recommended action actually reduce the supposed threat?
    • When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the speaker's proposal?

    Also interesting:

    President George W. Bush gave a talk at the Athena Performing Arts Center at Greece Athena Middle and High School Tuesday, May 24, 2005 in Rochester, NY. About half way through the event Bush said, "See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."

    Propaganda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Vision without implementation is hallucination.
    -Ben Franklin

  6. #21
    chrisl is offline City Mayor
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    Re: Kyl Sorry if Anyone Thinks His Statements Are Factual

    The thing that bothered me most about this case wasn't the lying (which to be fair is unfortunately commonplace in politicians). Rather it was the official response of "Yes, I deliberately lied." without bothering to deny it or apologise for it.

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