I don't understand why some people think "life in prison" is a sensible punishment. aGiving someone a room and letting them wither away over time is a waste of space. If they have done something that bad, then they no longer serve a purpose. Why let them take up jail space, which we seem to be needing more and more of? At least make them work. That way they're doing something. If you think that's wrong, it's no worse than shutting them up in an uncomfortable cell their whole life.
I

__________________

Yes. And, I don't consider "prison justice" to be justice. I consider that to be retribution. It may be poetic justice, but I don't think it's what civilized people should strive for.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I don't doubt that you've seen horrific things, and I don't doubt that they would make my blood boil, FWIW. There are some truly sick people out there that do some truly sick things. But, from where I'm standing, the most important thing is preventing future atrocities - not satisfying ourselves with poetic justice for the perpetrators. As I said in an earlier post, I think that the most reasonable thing to do with child predators is to euthanize them (as opposed to attempt to rehabilitate them). The way their brains are wired makes it impossible for them to live a normal/happy/productive life in society, even if they really want to. Until we develop the technology to alter fundamental brain programming, "putting them out of their misery" is probably the most humane thing to do. And, we don't have to do it sadistically with rusty knives and brutal gang rapes - removing them humanely from society is equally as effective as torture when it comes to preventing future crimes.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

It would be nice if we lived in a civilized society 100% of the time. It's too bad we don't.

__________________
.

Of course I enjoy playing devil's advocate! It makes for the most interesting discussions. In fact, as an aside, I would be happy to argue a point of view that I completely oppose, just as an exercise.

That's actually a pretty reasonable response. "Poetic justice" is aesthetically pleasing. It's littered through our popular culture, particularly in movies. There is nothing better than watching a movie where the asshole who beats his wife gets run over by a zamboni or something.

But that's a visceral and emotional response, not a logical one. Personally, I would hope that our legal/justice system would be coldly logical rather than emotionally vengeful. In my opinion, does a guy who microwaves his kid deserve to be thrown down a razer-banister into a pool of boiling rubbing alcohol? Absolutely. But, should our justice system enforce such a sentiment? Absolutely not. That's for him and God (and if you believe in him, Satan, who would likely figure prominently) to sort out.

Consider that if we dispense justice based on emotion we could head down a Nazi-like path. After all, Hitler inspired his country-men to think that Jews were guilty of horrible crimes against society, and so you wound up with a lot of people that happily tortured whoever they felt was destroying society. My point here is absolutely not to compare people who want "justice" for child molesters to Nazis - please don't think I would insinuate that - but rather to point out the potential consequences of a system of justice based on retribution and emotion rather than rational thought and consistent execution.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Would you say that the way to encourage civility is with barbarism?

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Did I propose or endorse barbarism?

__________________
.

I don't understand why some people think "life in prison" is a sensible punishment. aGiving someone a room and letting them wither away over time is a waste of space. If they have done something that bad, then they no longer serve a purpose. Why let them take up jail space, which we seem to be needing more and more of? At least make them work. That way they're doing something. If you think that's wrong, it's no worse than shutting them up in an uncomfortable cell their whole life.

I believe that some people, by commiting awful crimes such as this, are a waste of time to try and rehabilitate and no longer serve a purpose to society, their fellow man, or anything. Serving no purpose is no crime in itself, however. People who do sick things should be punished in sick ways. If the punishment isn't relative to the crime, then the criminal and people like them may not learn anything from the punisment. They need to understand the severity of what they did, and they need to undertand what their cruelty put their victim through. The only way to ensure this is by doing to them what they have done to get themselves in trouble. Now, I'm only suporting hammurabi-style laws for the most serious crimes. People who murder a single person or kill someone in street violence or something can serve some purpose by being put to work. They should of course be paid, but not a lot.

The main points Im trying to make are:

a. People need to be punished in the same way that they have hurt others. This is the only way they can truly know the pain they've caused. Such punishment will, if nothing else, dissuade criminals from doing sick and torturous things to others for fear of having the same things done to them.

b. Life in prison is a pointless punisment. The prisoner doesn't have the chance to apply any lessons learned because he will never be free, and the prisoner does little if anything to advance society or the economy. It's a waste of cell space. Jail-and-release or kill. It shouldn't be that tough of a decision.

c. Prisoners should be working. They obviously do already, but their life in prison should be mostly work. Put them to use. Cruel? No, remember, these are the people that have chosen to do harm to their own society and their own people. I'd probably rather do hard labor and get a sense of accomplishment and a little cash than waste away in a tiny prison cell for years anyways.

Arguments welcome

__________________

I would venture to say that it is a sensible punishment because it prevents criminals from committing more crimes.

First of all, the bolded is quite a statement - do I no longer serve a useful purpose in society because I tied one on last night?

Secondly, I agree with your sentiment. People incarcerated for life should be made to contribute in some way to society - why not? But (and correct me if I'm wrong) don't most prisons currently force inmates to do work for society?

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Not explicitly, I'll admit. It was what I inferred from the nature of your response. If I was in error, you have my apologies.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Not to dismiss the rest of your post, but I immediately zeroed in on this. "People who do 'sick' things should be punished in 'sick' ways." Out of curiosity, does this apply to the people who administer the "sick" punishments? If you go out and chop up your neighbor for fun, and then, to administer justice, I chop you up, shouldn't I also be punished for doing something "sick"? To wit, it takes a whopping amount of sickness to do sadistic things to people, even if you're given free reign to do so as part of some sort of state-sanctioned activity (again, I'll reference the Nazis). If your intention is to fight sadism with sadism, aren't we doing an Animal Farm/The Who thing - "meet the new boss - same as the old boss"?

You say that the punishment should be "relative" to the crime. So, how do we punish sick, sadistic people without sanctioning sick, sadistic people to do the dirty work? If a man who put his son/daughter in the microwave were brought before you, could you, personally, administer the torture to him that he did to his child and feel good about yourself afterward?

Edit: And, if the answer to your question is "yes, I could slowly burn someone alive, and have no issue with that", then perhaps you have some soul-searching to do.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

All right, my attention span is kind of in and out because I've been drinking for a while, but I'll address a few things here:

Aside from satisfying your sense of poetic justice, what purpose does the bolded serve? If a man goes out and rapes/murders a bunch of children, he will be just as dead whether we stick a needle in his arm, or mount him on the rack and stick red-hot pokers in his rectum. He will be dead and threaten no more people. So, what is the point of torturing him prior to his execution - to teach him a "lesson" (which is silly, since he's about to die), or to get off?


Again, to the bolded. Putting a known criminal in jail for life absolutely serves a purpose - it prevents the crimes that he otherwise would have committed. If crime prevention is not the foundation of our legal system, I don't know what is.

I agree with your (c).

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I see.
So then, would you please explain your thoughts as to why we have so many repeat offenders?

I may be barbaric but I am pretty dang sure that people would think twice before doing harm unto others if my type of justice was served.
There are those amoungst us that have no remorse at all, but they do have fear and I'm betting that if criminals knew they'd be treated as they treated their victims, things would change.......An example would be where crime was reduced to areas that recieved high handgun permits.

__________________
Anyone who thinks freedom comes cheap, please put the blindfold on and stand against the wall.

Many times I believe Americans will have to take back the country and start a new government.

Good argument.

__________________
Anyone who thinks freedom comes cheap, please put the blindfold on and stand against the wall.

Many times I believe Americans will have to take back the country and start a new government.

No apologies necessary, I know you didn't mean any harm.

The simple fact of the matter is, prison brutality exists, that's a fact. Does the fact that it exists bother me? It does to a certain degree. Am I going to weep for a serial rapist who then gets raped himself while doing time? Honest answer is there are other people who'd get my sympathy before that guy.

Do I think that prison brutality acts as a deterrent? Not 100%, but I don't think that the number is 0%. I mean let's be honest, if everyone who went to prison just did their time in their own cell, with 3 square meals a day, a roof over their head and no danger of physical or mental harm, prison wouldn't seem like such a daunting prospect. The fact that "inside" there are a whole different set of rules (and the violence which is inherent in a hierarchical prison system) is definitely a consideration / deterrent, which is the "silver lining" if there is one to prison violence. You aren't going to get rid of it, so if it serves a purpose, so be it.

__________________
.