I am not sure how to feel about this. On one hand if this occurred as the authorities in the court allege, he needs to be tried and punished, on the other hand I think this should occur in a military courts martial.

Evidence as with the haditha issue is by now tainted, they aren’t even sure of the house should they are looking for.

In addition while lie detectors are not presumptive of innocence in court, they are a powerful tool, his test for the police dept. came up empty of deception as to abuse or serious crimes in the past it appears.




Civilian Court Tries Case
From the Fog of War
Ex-Marine Is Accused Under Law
Aimed at Contractors; Questions in Fallujah
By NICHOLAS CASEY
August 19, 2008; Page A1

RIVERSIDE, Calif. -- Jose Luis Nazario was a Marine Corps sergeant in Iraq in November 2004, when he found himself leading a squad through three weeks of house-to-house fighting in the city of Fallujah.


Former Marine Corps Sgt. Jose Luis Nazario is charged with voluntary manslaughter for ordering the deaths of four unarmed men in Fallujah. WSJ's Nicholas Casey reports.
At one point, members of his team say, they entered a house and found unarmed men hiding under a staircase. Those men, according to testimony of some in Mr. Nazario's squad, didn't leave the house alive.

Two of Mr. Nazario's squad now await a military court-martial for allegedly killing unarmed men there. Mr. Nazario, however, left the Marines in 2005 with an honorable discharge and a medal of valor. By exiting the Marines, he also left the jurisdiction of military prosecutors.

Yet, in a trial scheduled to begin Tuesday, Mr. Nazario will nonetheless face manslaughter charges for allegedly participating in the Fallujah killings. The charges have been filed not by the military, but by civilian prosecutors in a federal court in Riverside, Calif. They are invoking a little-known law that allows U.S. courts to pursue overseas combat crimes that were traditionally beyond their grasp.

Changing the game in military justice is a law passed in 2000 to address the increased use of contract personnel, who were subject to neither court-martial nor civilian trials. Passage of the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act coincided with congressional debate centered on crimes local authorities didn't pursue, such as domestic abuse in contractor families or drug trafficking to soldiers by Americans on foreign soil. The law was seen as closing a loophole.

Mr. Nazario, 28 years old, denies the charges and has pleaded not guilty. "The incident never occurred," he said in a recent interview. Hypothetically, however, he defended the actions of Marines caught in such circumstances. "If it did occur," he said, "I don't see what our options would have been."

Besides hoisting military matters into civilian courts, the case also has potential to hold veterans accountable for battlefield crimes long after their government service has ended. In theory, such crimes could be prosecuted by the federal system for years or even decades after a war is over.

"How is it possible that our Congress sitting in Washington can make it a crime for an American citizen to kill a foreign national in a foreign country?" asks Mr. Nazario's attorney, Kevin B. McDermott.


Prosecuting crimes that allegedly took place on faraway battlefields may prove difficult, however. The bodies of the alleged Fallujah victims in this case were never recovered. Lawyers say it is possible, although harder, to prosecute an alleged killing if a body isn't found. Mr. Nazario's attorneys say prosecutors haven't given them names or identification of the alleged victims.

Military investigators visited a house they believe may have been the crime scene, but found no evidence of a crime, according to a June report prepared by the Navy. Though investigators wanted to revisit Fallujah to search for more evidence, instability there prevented it.

Government's Case

The government's case hinges on two eyewitness Marines who were members of Mr. Nazario's squad -- both of whom are expected to refuse to testify in the federal court.

Jerry A. Behnke, the assistant U.S. attorney prosecuting the case, declined an interview request for this article. His spokesman said: "In all cases we bring charges that we believe we can prove in court."

Mr. Nazario's prosecution surprised even some of those who crafted the law. "I don't think any of us at the time the legislation passed were contemplating that a potential criminal act that occurred while a person was on active duty in combat would be tried in a civilian court," says Sen. Jeff Sessions, the Alabama Republican who introduced the law. While he says Mr. Nazario shouldn't escape trial, Mr. Sessions says such a matter would be better handled by the military, were that possible.


Navy investigators, unable to pursue Mr. Nazario's case in military courts, turned the matter over to the Justice Department, along with a host of supporting documents, according to people familiar with the case in both organizations. The military says it is eager to pass such cases along, so that people are held accountable for their actions. Robert Reed, associate general counsel at the Department of Defense, says, "Now we're talking about a period of days where a case can get halfway around the world and into the hands of an attorney in middle America."

Mr. Nazario joined the Marine Corps in 1997 when he was 17 as an infantry rifleman. He eventually became a squad commander and, at Camp Pendleton near San Diego, instructed his men in skills like self-defense, setting up roadblocks and clearing houses.

He was sent to Iraq in June 2004. While fighting in Fallujah, he orchestrated a difficult rescue in a bloody firefight against Chechen insurgents that became known as "Hell House," a battle which happened days after the alleged incident for which he now stands trial.

Upon his return to the U.S. in 2005, he was honored with others for his bravery, and given a commendation medal by the Marine Corps, decorated with a "V" for valor. An accompanying plaque said Mr. Nazario had "performed courageously while leading his squad through multiple engagements with a cunning and determined enemy...with complete disregard for his own safety."

By 2006, Ryan Weemer, who had been a Marine corporal under Mr. Nazario's command, was on reserve and pursuing a job with the U.S. Secret Service. During a lie-detector test that was part of the interview process, Mr. Weemer's description of his time in Iraq worried his questioner.

In a Secret Service transcript of the interview, Mr. Weemer described an incident in which his unit captured several men in a house. The men were unarmed, but the squad felt pressure to stay with other Marines who were moving through the city.

"I don't know -- " Mr. Weemer recalled, "I -- we ended up..."

"Shooting them?" the questioner asked, according to the transcript.

Mr. Weemer: "We had to, yeah."

The case was forwarded to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, a law-enforcement agency that probes crimes in the Navy and Marine Corps.

According to testimony given to NCIS by members of Mr. Nazario's squad -- Mr. Weemer and fellow servicemen Jermaine Nelson and James L. Prentice -- Mr. Nazario's platoon arrived in Fallujah about 10 a.m. on Nov. 9, 2004. The platoon split into three squads that entered the city on foot.

Suddenly, Mr. Nazario's squad heard gunshots coming from a two-story gated house nearby. The team entered the building through an unlocked door, Messrs. Prentice and Nelson testified, according to the NCIS transcripts.

There, the Marines found four men, presumed to be Iraqis, sitting on the floor: a middle-aged man and three men in their teens or 20s. They raised their hands over their heads, according to testimony by Mr. Prentice.

According to Messrs. Nelson and Prentice's accounts, the Iraqi men told Mr. Nazario in broken English that they had no weapons. But a search turned up several AK-47 automatic rifles and ammunition, according to those interviewed by NCIS. "I could see that Sgt. Nazario was really upset," Mr. Nelson told investigators. Mr. Nazario then struck one of the men, according to Mr. Nelson's testimony.

Mr. Nazario denies this happened.

According to the testimony of Messrs. Weemer, Nelson and Prentice -- who say they were in the room with Mr. Nazario at the time -- Mr. Nazario used a radio to call for orders on what to do next. The instructions, Mr. Nazario told them, were to kill the prisoners, the three men say in their testimony. "We argued about it, and argued about it, and we had to move, we had to get out, and our unit was moving down the street," Mr. Weemer says in the transcript of his testimony.

Mr. Nazario grabbed one of the younger men and took him into the kitchen, according to a signed statement by Mr. Nelson to NCIS. Mr. Nelson said he heard a gunshot and went to see what happened. "I saw that Nazario had shot him right in his eyeball," the statement says. In an NCIS transcript, Mr. Nelson says Mr. Nazario then said: "Now, I'm not doing all this s- by myself," and told Messrs. Nelson and Weemer to choose a victim.

Mr. Nazario denies this happened.

Mr. Nelson said he saw Mr. Nazario "shoot the older Iraqi in the forehead with his rifle." Mr. Nazario says this didn't happen.

Mr. Nelson says, in his statement, that Mr. Weemer shot another man in nearby room. Then Mr. Nelson shot the last man once in the back of the head, according to his statement to investigators.

Mr. Weemer and Mr. Prentice differ on who fired the first shot. In their statements, both said Mr. Weemer shot before Mr. Nazario did. "I just shot twice," Mr. Weemer says in an NCIS transcript. "And I didn't even look."


Startled by the gunshots, Lance Cpl. Samuel R. Severtsgaard, who was outside, came into the room and saw the bodies on the floor along with two disassembled AK-47s. "This is the only time we ever talked about it," he said in a statement to NCIS. "We dropped it after that." There is no evidence of wrongdoing by Mr. Severtsgaard or Mr. Prentice.

Messrs. Weemer and Nelson are expected not to testify in the Riverside case, their lawyers say, and both have refused to testify before a federal grand jury. Both men, who are still in the military, face court-martial proceedings and believe their testimony will be used against them, according to their lawyers.

Messrs. Weemer and Nelson have both pleaded not guilty to unpremeditated murder in the court-martial, according to their attorneys. Paul Hackett, who is representing Mr. Weemer, says his client shot in self defense after his detainee lunged at him.

Both men declined to be interviewed for this story, their lawyers said.

After returning to the U.S., Mr. Nazario served out his eight-year Marine contract and went to work as a police officer in Riverside, Calif., 50 miles east of Los Angeles.

Lie-Detector Test

Mr. Nazario took a lie-detector test of his own in 2005, when he joined the Riverside police. "No deception is indicated," says a report, which indicates that he was asked if he had ever abused anyone as an adult or committed a serious crime.

In a recent interview, Mr. Nazario said he went to Riverside to raise a family and "protect the people there," which was "a natural extension from my work in the Marines."

During his time in Riverside, Navy investigators arranged a surreptitiously taped phone call between Mr. Nelson and Mr. Nazario, during which Mr. Nazario described his work. Saying his job was much like the television show "Cops," he told Mr. Nelson that he regularly would "beat the s- out of" a criminal, finding "a reason to take him to jail" later, according to a transcript of the conversation.

In court filings, prosecutors say the conversation shows the two men discussing the killings in Fallujah. "Who gave us the orders though?" asks Mr. Nelson. Mr. Nazario replies: "I did." But Mr. Nazario then says the order to kill the men came via radio from someone higher up.

On Aug. 7, 2007, Mr. Nazario was finishing night patrol in Riverside, when ordered to return to headquarters. NCIS personnel were there and told him he was under arrest.

Asked in an interview about the statements that led to his arrest, Mr. Nazario says he didn't understand that Mr. Nelson was referring to a particular incident in Fallujah and that he wasn't acknowledging any crime. He defends his record at the Riverside Police Department, and says he may have been drinking during the call; he describes the conversation as "two guys" who were "talking tough" about "untrue stories."

A police spokesman said state law prevents him from commenting on Mr. Nazario's personnel record, but that he was aware of no criminal charges against Mr. Nazario during his time on the force.

Mr. Nazario says that his squad's recollection of what happened in Fallujah that day is wrong. He declined to elaborate.

But he adds that it would have been impossible for his squad to have taken prisoners in Fallujah: There were no facilities nearby to detain them in and no way to prevent them from returning to the fight. Moving his squad through the city with handcuffed insurgents in tow wasn't an option, he says.

"I don't see what we were supposed to do with detainees," he says. "We had more houses to clear." He adds: "If this incident occurred like they said it did, I don't see how any Marine would be expected to jeopardize the life of himself and his own men."

Mr. Nazario says he lost his police job after the charges were filed, and moved to Rock Hill, N.Y., near relatives, as part of an agreement with the court.

'Life on the Line'

With his wife and child nearby, Mr. Nazario said recently that he feels betrayed by the Marines. "I put my life on the line every day. I got shot at every day there," he said. "And when I needed help, no one in the Marines was there to help me." A spokesman for the Marines in Camp Pendleton had no comment.

Mr. Nazario's lawyers, who are former Marines, say they are handling the case largely pro bono.

Indictment papers give no address for the two-story home where the killings allegedly happened, identifying it only as "in Fallujah, Iraq." The two alleged victims are called "John Doe #1" and "John Doe #2."

According to a Navy report dated June this year, naval investigators visited "a house, strikingly similar in appearance to the house in which the killings occurred" and interviewed the owner. But they found "no apparent evidence of the killings," the report said. The report didn't say when that visit was made, and the Navy wouldn't comment.

As of the report's June filing date, investigators had been unable to return to the scene, the report said, because the area is too dangerous



Civilian Court Tries Case From the Fog of War - WSJ.com

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

How the HELL does a civilian court in Cali-freakin-fornia have any jurisdiction over an event that happened in Fallujah during a military activity by a service member????

What is up with judges in CA?

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Something in the water, something in the air...

All the homo-sex going on over there

That crap does tend to warp minds

Nothing done in Cali-porn-ia surprises me

Nasty place.

Possibly the same way we seem to frequently arrest foreigners in foreign lands for violating our laws.

According to 60 Minutes the charges against everyone else have been dismissed and those against Nazario reduced to manslaughter. Not bad when you blatantly violate the rules of engagement and kill 18 people for being in a nearby village when a bomb goes off outside.

Amazing, the perfidity of these Iraqi insurgents, how they train 2 year old children to assist in these attacks.

Where is the New John Kerry when we need him?

Patriotism like that is hard to come by.

They need to handle this shit in a military court. California needs to knock it the fuck off.

__________________

"Compassionate Conservatism"?!?! That is a stupid phrase. Conservatism is inherently compassionate. It is liberalism that is cruel for the sake of maintaining a constituency.

Needs to knock it off eh ?

How do you suppose they'll be convinced to knock it off ? MAYBE after they're done JACKING off you can talk some sense to them. May be a very long wait.

Civil court is established to ensure the justice and law in the country so I agree with it.


Wisconsin Drug Addiction

Nothing is without boundaries. And they crossed 'em.

__________________

"Compassionate Conservatism"?!?! That is a stupid phrase. Conservatism is inherently compassionate. It is liberalism that is cruel for the sake of maintaining a constituency.

Well, since he is out of the marines, he should be turned over to the local authorities in Fallujah, where he can be given a fair trial in the jurisdiction where the crime occurred.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

It's good to know that you are willing to toss out the Constitution when it suits your thirst for the blood of "pampered losers".

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

The constitution only applies to everyone in the USA. It does not apply when you are in Iraq or gitmo.

__________________
Terrornoia: how the propa-ugandists used the omni-territorialization of terror for the fundamen-talismanization of criminal law in a multi-cultus-ritualistic society

It applies to citizens, and gosh, wouldn't you know it? Service members of the USA are usually citizens.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

American law applies to everyone in the USA, citizen or not. American law does not apply to anyone in Iraq, citizen or not. That's how it works.

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Terrornoia: how the propa-ugandists used the omni-territorialization of terror for the fundamen-talismanization of criminal law in a multi-cultus-ritualistic society

*sigh* You are arguing that a US service member, who has already had a trial, should have the authorites extradict him to Iraq for another trial. That will never happen as it is a violation of the 5th Amemdment and no authority can do that. He is protected by the Constitution. Calling for such a thing is a clear indication that one is willing to toss out the Constitution to quench a thirst for the blood of a service member. Petty and vindictive, is the best I can say about your argument and that of Goober.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

That is pure, unfiltered, bullshit.