"Cyberbully" Case Overturned - Page 5 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

John Drake · #61 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

I see no further point in this. You become more and more impolite as your arguments becoming increasingly repetitious and weaker. bye.

Slon · #62 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

I see no further point in this. You become more and more impolite as your arguments becoming increasingly repetitious and weaker. bye.

So now I'm impolite because I went out of my way to explain the same incredibly simple concept to you multiple times so you understand? Go cry about it somewhere else.

Kyle · #63 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

If I place someone in a very hot room and/or deny them food etc. to the point where they die, am I not, even though I didn't physically kill them, responsible for their death?

Yes you are, you physically denied them food and an atmosphere in which they could survive. You knew that by placing someone in this room they would die.

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Originally Posted by John Drake

This woman purposely caused the death of this child and causing a death is murder

She did not know the little brat would kill herself, did she?

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Oh, and the fact that this girl may (or may not) have committed suicide anyway is like arguing that the person I imprisoned was oversensitive to heat, it exacerbates instead of excusing my culpability.

You are the worst debator I have come across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Besides that, the woman knew she was dealing with a child and a disturbed person, and her actions were specifically designed to make this child commit suicide.

It is not her fault the kid CHOSE to kill herself, is it?

Steve · #64 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Nobody forces you to answer a telephone or open your mail, but a death threat through either medium is still illegal.

Causing a death intentionally is, unless it's legal execution or in wartime, is it not?

I believe this woman's intention to cause the girl's suicide was established either at or before the trial.

She didn't, but I used that only as an illustration that mental harm is recognized as tangible by law.

How does any of that negate the fact that your comparison was a failure?

John Drake · #65 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle

Yes you are, you physically denied them food and an atmosphere in which they could survive. You knew that by placing someone in this room they would die.

She did not know the little brat would kill herself, did she?

You are the worst debator I have come across.

It is not her fault the kid CHOSE to kill herself, is it?

And this woman knew that the little girl would kill herself. It was established at the trial that she knew the girl was disturbed and suicidal.

Na na na, so are you

Yes it is Indeed, it was her purposeful intention to cause just that.

John Drake · #66 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

How does any of that negate the fact that your comparison was a failure?

A failure at what?

Slon · #67 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

And this woman knew that the little girl would kill herself.

Where in the source does it say this?

Quote:

It was established at the trial that she knew the girl was disturbed and suicidal.

Which does not necessarily mean that the woman KNEW she was disturbed or suicidal, much less that she WOULD kill herself, given that the trial at which it was supposedly established occurred after the girls death.

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Na na na, so are you

I don't know. I think posting and reposting that kidnapping scenario and claiming it was parallel to this kind of sealed your fate in the debating regard.

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Yes it is, it was her purposeful intention to cause just that.

Did she reach through her monitor and put the kid's head in a noose to make it look like a suicide?

Slon · #68 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

A failure at what?

I really don't understand why you willingly (for your sake) choose to completely disregard the fact that the girl decided to hang herself and hanged herself. She wasn't kidnapped and put into a terrible situation that resulted in suicide, she wasn't tricked into taking a poison pill, she wasn't deceived into thinking that hanging herself was going to be a lot of fun, or anything of the sort.

What happened was that she came across a person online who flames. There are likely millions upon millions who do this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of them failed to put their real names as their user names. These people flame and cause bad feelings to develop in those who read the flames. Most people can handle it easily. Others get a fucking clue and log off. Then there are dumb people who get really hung up on it. Then there are dumber people who file a legal complaint because their feelings were hurt. And then there's this girl, who killed herself. She couldn't do any of the above so she made the DECISION to kill herself.

But seriously, do you think people who commit suicide do it for fun and because they're happy? Don't you think there are thousands of cases where people were fired from work or lost too many card games who decided to off themselves because of it? Should the casino owners and employers all go to prison for murder because of it?

Sunshine · #69 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

I am amazed at what I am reading in this thread.

Maybe OSB can come up with a case, but in all honesty, I do not recall a single one in which the victim suicided that someone else was called to taks for it.

But this case involves a minor, and a mentally fragile one. It goes far beyond the 'your'e ugly and your mother dresses you funny' kind of being mean. This woman victimized this young girl repeatedly with causing her death as her ultimate goal. Tort law would see the suicide as the superceding cause of death. But this is a criminal case. In some states stalking a person once gets you warned. Stalking them twice gets you accused of a felony and a year in the penitentiary. This woman deliberately tried to cause this suicide. She did it by cyber stalking. And she doesn't even get her hands slapped.

If she had burned a disc and stolen a movie she could have gotten 5 years in a federal prison and a $250,000 fine. But this child's life is worth less than a movie.

I am completely disgusted that this child is being called a brat and that her death is being minimized.

People on BOTH sides of this argument need to step back and ask yourselves why a movie is worth more than the life of a child in this country. IMNSHO someone needs to raise a big stink about this. Laws and penalties can be changed. The world has changed since most of our laws were written. There is an element of evil that our children are exposed to that in unimaginable. And THIS is one example of it.

Don't even go there with 'it's all the parent's fault.' It isn't. That is nothing but a cop out for most of you know that parents have to work and mother never was June Cleaver. Most parents do the best they can. And most are struggling. The lack of empathy for both the parents AND the child in this thread are truly disgusting.

I don't expect anyone from off our shores to give a shit about one life in this country. But life IS precious whether anyone on here wants to acknowledge it. The fact that this girl was mentally ill has NO bearing on it whatsoever. People with mental illness enrich our lives:

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Abraham Lincoln
The revered 16th President suffered from severe, incapacitating and occasionally suicidal depressions, as documented in six biographical volumes by Carl Sandburg, and in numerous articles including "Dark Veil of Depression" by Judy Folkenberg, National Institute of Mental Health, published in The Consumer, HHS Pub. 3140, and in Your Health magazine, 3/28/90, pp.12-13.

Virginia Woolf
The British novelist who wrote To The Lighthouse and Orlando experienced bipolar depression characterized by feverish periods of writing and weeks immersed in gloom. Her story is discussed in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr and in U.S. News & World Report, 3/5/90, p.50.
Lionel Aldridge
A defensive end for Vince Lombardi's legendary Green Bay Packers of the 1960s, Aldridge played in two Super Bowls. In the 1970s, he suffered from schizophrenia and was homeless for 2 1/2 years. He went on to give inspirational talks on his battle against paranoid schizophrenia. His story is the subject of numerous newspaper articles.
Eugene O'Neill
The famous playwright, author of Long Day's Journey Into Night and Ah, Wilderness, suffered from clinical depression, as documented in Eugene O'Neill by Olive Coolidge.
Ludwig von Beethoven
The brilliant composer Ludwig von Beethoven suffered throughout his adult life from what we now know as bipolar disorder.

Gaetano Donizetti
The opera singer suffered from bipolar depression, as documented in Donizetti by Herbert Weinstock.

Robert Schumann
The "inspired poet of human suffering" experienced bipolar depression, as discussed in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr and Creative Malady by George Pickering.
Leo Tolstoy
Author of War and Peace, Tolstoy revealed the extent of his own mental illness in My Confession. His experience is also discussed in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr and Inner World of Madness by Bert Kaplan.
Vaslov Nijinsky
The dancer's clinical depression is documented in his autobiography, The Diary of Vaslov Nijinsky, in Bert Kaplan's Inner World of Madness and in U.S. News & World Report, 11/21/88, p.16.
John Keats
The renowned poet's mental illness is documented in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr and The Broken Brain by Nancy Andreasen
Edgar Allan Poe
The author's severe bouts with paranoia and alcoholism originated from his bipolar depression as documented in The Haunted Palace: The Life of Edgar Allan Poe by Frances Winwar.
Tennessee Williams
The playwright gave a personal account of his struggle with clinical depression in his own Memoirs. His experience is also documented in Five O'Clock Angel by Marie St. Just, in Kindness of Strangers by Donald Spoto, in Tennessee: Cry of the Heart by Dotson Rader and in "Remembering Tennessee Williams," New York Times, 5/30/90, p.B3.
Vincent Van Gogh
The celebrated artist's bipolar depression is discussed in Key to Genius by Hershman and Lieb, Dear Theo: Autobiography of Van Gogh by Irving Stone and an article in Your Health magazine, 3/28/89, pp.12-13.
Isaac Newton
The scientist's mental illness is discussed in Creative Malady by George Pickering, in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr and in Key to Genius by Hershman and Lieb.
Ernest Hemingway
The novelist's publicized suicidal depression is examined in The True Gen by Denis Brian.
Sylvia Plath
The poet and novelist ended her lifelong struggle with clinical depression by taking her own life, as reported in A Memory of Sylvia Plath by Nancy Hunter Steiner.
Michelangelo
The mental illness of one of the world's greatest artists is discussed in Dynamics of Creation by Anthony Storr.
Winston Churchill
"Had he been a stable and equable man, he could never have inspired the nation. In 1940, when all the odds were against Britain, a leader of sober judgment might well have concluded that we were finished," wrote Anthony Storr in Churchill. Storr also discussed Churchill's bipolar depression in Dynamics of Creation. Statesman, scholar, author, and artist, Winston Churchill suffered from recurrent episodes of depression throughout his adult life.
Vivien Leigh
The "Gone with the Wind" star suffered from mental illness, as documented in Vivien Leigh by Anne Edwards.
Emperor Joshua Norton
Self-appointed "Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico," Joshua Norton won "a permanent place in the annals of San Francisco, as the wisest and shrewdest of madmen." His life is chronicled in Emperor Norton of San Francisco by William Kramer, Emperor Norton I by William Drury, Pioneer Jews by Drachman and Guide to San Francisco, pp.40-45.
Jimmy Piersall
The baseball player for the Boston Red Sox who suffered from bipolar depression detailed his experience in The Truth Hurts.
Patty Duke
The Academy Award-winning actress told of her bipolar depression in her autobiography and made-for-TV-movie, Call Me Anna and its sequel, A Brilliant Madness, co-authored by Gloria Hochman. Her story appears in U.S. News & World Report, 3/5/90, p.51 and in Your Health magazine, 3/28/89, pp.12-13.
Charles Dickens
Charles Dickens, author of the classica A Christmas Carol and Oliver Twist, suffered from episodes of clinical depression. One of the greatest authors in English language suffered from clinical depression, as documented in Key to Genius by Hershman and Lieb and in Charles Dickens, Vols. I and II, by Edgar Johnson.
Thelonious Monk
Jazz great Thelonious Monk struggled with mental illness during much of his later career. This pianist and composer was at the forefront of the bebop movement in the 1940s and 50s. Though his highly individual style was at first unpopular, he contributed a long list of standards to the jazz repertoire, including Straight, No Chaser and 'Round Midnight. His recordings, which often coincided with erratic behavior, influenced a new generation of legends such as Miles Davis and Sonny Rollins. And in the 1960s his work at last became popular with mainstream fans, earning him the cover of Time magazine in 1964.

The world will never know what this child could/would have been. And just because the woman didn't get a sentence in this case does not make her an upright citizen. A person who would do what she did to a child is the scum of the earth.

The laws need to be changed to keep up with the kind of depravity that is currently being unleased on our children.

Slon · #70 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

But this case involves a minor, and a mentally fragile one. It goes far beyond the 'your'e ugly and your mother dresses you funny' kind of being mean.

I doubt that there are too many Internet flamers who flame so lightly. That fails to show this as anything special.

Quote:

This woman victimized this young girl repeatedly with causing her death as her ultimate goal. Tort law would see the suicide as the superceding cause of death. But this is a criminal case. In some states stalking a person once gets you warned. Stalking them twice gets you accused of a felony and a year in the penitentiary. This woman deliberately tried to cause this suicide. She did it by cyber stalking. And she doesn't even get her hands slapped.

If I remember the case correctly, this girl kept going to MySpace to read the messages. She was seeking out the information. How is that "stalking" of any kind?

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If she had burned a disc and stolen a movie she could have gotten 5 years in a federal prison and a $250,000 fine. But this child's life is worth less than a movie.

Regardless of what she didn't get for the supposed "stalking," 5 years in a prison for burning a disc (which does not involve "stealing") is beyond ridiculous. Pointing to one ridiculous law to justify another ridiculous law is stupid, unless the other party supports it (and I do not).

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I am completely disgusted that this child is being called a brat and that her death is being minimized.

People on BOTH sides of this argument need to step back and ask yourselves why a movie is worth more than the life of a child in this country.

First of all, I think our copyright laws are fucking retarded. Secondly, she didn't take the girl's life because she took her own life.

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IMNSHO someone needs to raise a big stink about this. Laws and penalties can be changed. The world has changed since most of our laws were written. There is an element of evil that our children are exposed to that in unimaginable. And THIS is one example of it.

Oh great, the "there ought to be a law" crowd comes out of the woodwork and starts telling us about how we need to jerk our knees and write some more laws. To back it up, they bring up the atrocity that is copyright law.

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Don't even go there with 'it's all the parent's fault.' It isn't. That is nothing but a cop out for most of you know that parents have to work and mother never was June Cleaver. Most parents do the best they can. And most are struggling. The lack of empathy for both the parents AND the child in this thread are truly disgusting.

So wait, it's completely the woman's fault for posting stuff on MySpace and having the girl VOLUNTARILY access it, but it's not the fault of the parents for letting her access it via their ISP service and (probably) computer in their own home? I guess the woman should have done the parenting online, huh?

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I don't expect anyone from off our shores to give a shit about one life in this country. But life IS precious whether anyone on here wants to acknowledge it. The fact that this girl was mentally ill has NO bearing on it whatsoever. People with mental illness enrich our lives:

Then maybe you should blame the girl for putting the fucking noose around her neck.

Quote:

The world will never know what this child could/would have been. And just because the woman didn't get a sentence in this case does not make her an upright citizen. A person who would do what she did to a child is the scum of the earth.

The laws need to be changed to keep up with the kind of depravity that is currently being unleased on our children.

Yeah, those goddamn flamers! I say mandatory 10-year minimum for anyone convicted of Internet flaming!

Kyle · #71 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

And this woman knew that the little girl would kill herself. It was established at the trial that she knew the girl was disturbed and suicidal.

Na na na, so are you

Yes it is Indeed, it was her purposeful intention to cause just that.

Whether she knew the brat was suicidal is not the point, she did not make that kid wrap a rope around her neck.

The kid chose to kill herself, like it or not. Good God, you want to go and charge every bully who torments a kid to suicide?

Get over yourself.

Steve · #72 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

A failure at what?

The case at hand cannot be accurately compared to the idiotic sceario you presented...

John Drake · #73 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle

Whether she knew the brat was suicidal is not the point, she did not make that kid wrap a rope around her neck.

The kid chose to kill herself, like it or not. Good God, you want to go and charge every bully who torments a kid to suicide?

Get over yourself.

Indeed it is. By your lights the argument "I didn't mean to kill the old man, just beat him up a little" is a valid defense. Also, verbal harm is recognized as harm by law, whether you like it or not.

Has it become that commonplace nowadays? Though if your attitude is the prevailing one I guess I can see why.

Look, what we call bullying is what adults call assault and battery. I've never yet figured why just because childen do it we're all told to ignore it. In any case, this isn't about bullying, this is about a predatory adult targeting a vulnerable child and killing her. The fact that she used the child's own illness to kill her makes her crime worse, it doesn't excuse it.

John Drake · #74 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

The case at hand cannot be accurately compared to the idiotic sceario you presented...

OIC, well, that's your stock defense whenever anyone uses a comparison you can't answer.

WHY can't it be "accurately" compared? It's not the same thing, no, that's why its a comparison, but how is it fundamentally so very different?

Slon · #75 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

OIC, well, that's your stock defense whenever anyone uses a comparison you can't answer.

If I remember correctly, I've already shot your attempt at analogy to shit, so Steve's failure to answer is irrelevant.

Quote:

WHY can't it be "accurately" compared? It's not the same thing, no, that's why its a comparison, but how is it fundamentally so very different?

What? Your analogy about a person taken by force and thrown into a death trap? Hmm, let me think...

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