Parents sue bat company, 12 retards award them $850,000 - Page 5 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

fishjoel · #61 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

You know, between this and the dynamite-loaded wood bat, I really like your ideas for the game...

The fun part would be that you don't know what kind of bat you're getting.

Steve · #62 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishjoel

The fun part would be that you don't know what kind of bat you're getting.

Add one of these under a random base in a random inning, and you could have one Hell of an afternoon:

EagleTed · #63 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Seems like the fact that all batters have to wear a helmet would give the parent's a clue. Of course, I blame the dumbing down of America for the fact that some juries don't have much sense.

I suspect, more kids die in car wreaks going to and from baseball games than on the field. What's the safety freaks solution to that?

Balance · #64 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleTed

Seems like the fact that all batters have to wear a helmet would give the parent's a clue. Of course, I blame the dumbing down of America for the fact that some juries don't have much sense.

I suspect, more kids die in car wreaks going to and from baseball games than on the field. What's the safety freaks solution to that?

.

(Am thinking wood cars may be the answer. For the sake of the children...)

.

John Drake · #65 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slon

You're being ridiculous. Nobody is saying you should be forced to use aluminum bats or any bats for that matter. I really don't understand what your malfunction here is. If you don't like aluminum bats, don't buy them or play with them. Don't like any bats? Don't buy those, either. I think your love for big government has given you the false impression that the argument is between "ban aluminum bats outright/hold the makers responsible for all accidents regardless lack of defects" and "force your kids to play with aluminum bats and no helmets." It's not. You can let people who want to take the risks take them and you can sit at home and lock yourself in a safe. With a helmet on.Why are you having so much trouble making individual decisions? Why do you need the government to decide for you? Don't fucking buy the bats if you think they're dangerous. Do you really want them to put "taking a baseball to the temple at high speeds may be hazardous to your health" on the baseball bat? And if they did, would you really be happy? I doubt it.

I'm sorry, but blunt object + speed = dangerous is not something that needs to be explained on the product label.

Well, for example, if they said and wrote that they were selling you an aluminum bat but instead they sold you a wooden bat with dynamite inside it that exploded after being picked up and tore your arms off. I think that would do it.

Nahh...it's the kid's fault for not bringing an explosives-sniffing dog along.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

I got news for you: If he was hit hard enough with a ball, of an aluminum bat, to kill him, he likely would've been killed if the ball came off a wood bat...

"Most coaches"?

Now would be the time for me to ask the question that you will undoubtedly dodge: Can you back up that statement?

What the fuck does politics have to do with this? All you're doing is proving that the only thing libs care about is the money. As long as there's a pay day, you guys are cool.

The only safety claim that needs to be made is "Playing baseball can be dangerous"...

Quote:

Critics say metal bats pose dangers to pitchers
NED BARNETT
The News & Observer

Babe Ruth used it like a weapon. Ted Williams swung it like a
wand. On the radio, its crack could make a nation leap.

But outside of professional baseball, the wooden bat has gone the
way of yesteryear's greats. Even the crack has been replaced, by
a metallic "ping."

From the college level on down, the bat has evolved from wood to
a clunky metal tube to a marvel of lightweight hitting power that
can cost $200 or more.

The evolution of the bat, especially versions introduced since
the mid-1990s, has alarmed baseball purists and others who see
the high-performance tool endangering pitchers and infielders
from Little Leaguers through the elite college ranks.

Last week, an NCAA research panel recommended a stronger testing
process for metal bats to ensure they do not exceed NCAA
performance standards. In May, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
Commission agreed to formally review safety concerns about the
high-tech bats.

"You'll never see pro baseball with aluminum bats," said Bill
Thurston, baseball coach at Amherst [Mass.] College and editor
for the NCAA's baseball rules committee. "They'd need to put a
screen in front of pitchers, put the infielders in the outfield
and move the fans back."

In March of this year, Andrew Sanchez, a college pitcher for Cal
State Northridge, sued the maker of Louisville Slugger bats and
the NCAA after his skull was fractured by a line drive in an
April 1999 game against the University of Southern California.

The suit contends that the bat involved was "unsafe in both
design and manufacture because the ball speed off the bat was
significantly increased from the ball speed of wood or less
powerful aluminum bats that had been used in past years."

The hazard of aluminum bats, if any, is hard to measure. No one
has done a comprehensive survey of injuries to pitchers and
infielders since thin-walled, high performance bats first emerged
in the late 1980s. The bats took another step upward in the
mid-1990s with the introduction of aluminum alloys originally
developed for the aerospace industry.

NCAA researchers who have examined the "exit speed" of balls off
wood and aluminum bats find a wide variety depending on the grade
of aluminum bat, the speed of the pitch and the point of impact
on the bat. But they agree that aluminum bats hit the ball harder
more often. They've also found that aluminum bats become more
potent with use as the metal develops more spring.

"What you find is you are naive about what a bat is doing," said
Wally Renfro, an NCAA spokesman. "There is a whole lot more going
on than you thought."

Though the risk of aluminum bats has yet to be quantified, there
is anecdotal evidence that balls struck by high-performance bats
do hit more pitchers and cause greater damage.

Injuries cause concern

Two college pitchers were hit in the face in three days during
the NCAA regional playoffs last month in Minnesota. Both
pitchers, one from the University of Nebraska, the other from
Butler University, suffered broken jaws. The Nebraska' pitcher's
injury required the insertion of a titanium plate.

In Japan, seven high school players have died after being hit
with balls off aluminum bats since aluminum bats were introduced
in 1974. The most recent death occurred in April.

Last year, the Japanese Amateur Baseball Association imposed
limits on the bats' design. Next year, Japanese high school
pitchers will be required to wear specially designed helmets
during practice.

In the U.S., several negligence lawsuits are pending against bat
manufacturers and leagues that allow the bats.

One injury involved Jeremy Brett, a high school pitcher in Enid,
Okla., who was hit in the face with a line drive. Doctors
repaired the damage with five metal plates, 75 staples and 12
screws. Brett, 18, has suffered continuing headaches and has some
blind spots in his vision.

His parents, David and Terry Brett, filed suit in federal court
against Hillerich & Bradsby, the maker of Louisville Slugger
bats, claiming their son's injury was caused by the bat's design.

The bat was Louisville Slugger's Air Attack 2. The bat's thin
walls create a "trampoline effect" when a ball hits it. To
prevent denting, the bat is filled with pressurized gas.

"What disturbed me the most is that we've been in the dark about
the equipment these kids are using," said Terry Brett. "This
should have been stopped long ago. The next kid may not live
through this."

Jack MacKay designed high-tech bats for Hillerich & Bradsby from
1986 to 1997, but said he resigned out of concern that the bats
had become too dangerous. "Every time someone gets hit by an
impact from an aluminum bat, they get a fractured skull, it seems
like," MacKay said from the Mount Pleasant, Texas, ranch where he
designed and tested the bats. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist
to see what we did was wrong."

Debate over restrictions

This year, the NCAA clamped restrictions on the large, but
lightweight bats. Bat barrels were limited to a maximum
circumference of 5 3/8 inches. The bat's length could not exceed
its weight by more than 3, thus a 35-inch bat must weigh at least
32 ounces. The exit speed of a ball off the bat should not exceed
97 mph when a batting machine hits a 67 mph pitch with a 67 mph
swing.

In North Carolina and most of the nation, high schools will
impose the size and weight limits in 2001, but they have not
settled on the exit speed limit. This year, the first season
under the new bat restrictions, the NCAA reports that home runs,
scoring and batting averages are all down from last year.

But Thurston and other critics say the bats still exceed the
level of risk associated with wood-bat baseball. They say the new
rules merely froze the bats at a point where the ball leaves the
bat much faster than wood. They suspect that the dip in college
offense this year mostly reflects the use of a new, less lively
ball by Rawlings in NCAA Division I.

But even at this year's lower numbers, the metal bats have
clearly changed the game. In mid-season 2000, the average number
of home runs per game and earned runs per game in Division I was
significantly higher than in 1973, the last year for wooden bats.

Thurston said the high performance bats hurt the game with too
much offense. But he is more worried about them hurting players.
He said, "For people to say there is still not a problem, just
think of this: If it's hit harder more often, isn't there a
greater risk of injury?"

Champion for change

MacKay, who holds 12 patents on various aluminum bats, is
applying the same energy to undoing his work. He testifies on
behalf of people suing the bat companies, lobbies the NCAA for
tougher limits and releases internal memos from the companies
indicating they disregarded safety concerns.

Jim Darby, a vice president with Easton Sporting Goods of Van
Nuys, Calif., called the worries about aluminum bats "a witch
hunt." "Anyone who insists there are more injuries than with wood
bats is wrong because there is no statistical data that would
show that," he said.

MacKay's latest action may clear up the murky safety issue. In
April he filed a petition with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety
Commission asking that aluminum bats that exceed wood standards
be recalled and their manufacturers be fined for ignoring safety
concerns.

MacKay's petition, accompanied by more than 20 technical studies
and references to more than 200 exhibits, was accepted last month
for formal review by the commission. A decision by the agency
could be as much as a year away.

NCAA a key player

Bill Williams, a spokesman for Louisville Slugger, said MacKay's
complaints are misdirected. "He needs to talk with the NCAA,"
Williams said. "They're the ones who set the standards. We are
making a safe product, a legal product."

The NCAA has wrestled with the metal bats issue for more than a
decade, but concern peaked when hitters shattered records during
the 1998 College World Series. The 1998 championship game, in
which Southern California beat Arizona State 21-14, lasted four
hours as the teams combined for nine home runs and 39 hits.
Overall, the 14-game World Series produced a record 62 home runs.

The new NCAA rules say the ball's exit speed off the bat should
not exceed 97 mph, but MacKay, Thurston and others say the lab
test for aluminum bats underestimates the speeds attained when
the bat is swung by a hitter. In 1998, the NCAA did approve an
exit speed of 93 mph, but the limit brought protests from bat
manufacturers. One company, Easton Sporting Goods, sued the NCAA
seeking $267 million in damages. The NCAA conducted further
testing and revised the limit upward to 97 mph. Easton promptly
withdrew its suit.

Advocates of a wood standard say the NCAA caved in to the
manufacturers by allowing speeds higher than those reached with
wood. They also contend that the NCAA restrictions ignore the
larger sweet spot of aluminum bats, which creates a higher
percentage of hard hit balls per game, including more line dives
ripped at the pitcher.

Steve Baum, an inventor in Traverse City, Mich., thought he had
solved the controversy when he invented a wooden bat with a fiber
core. The bat restores the wooden crack to the game and it hits
balls at speeds equal to wood, but it does not break like wooden
bats.

Baum has sold his wood-like "Baumbat" to the minor leagues but
has been unsuccessful in selling it to leagues where high
performance bats are used. He filed suit in federal court
claiming that the bat manufacturers have conspired with the NCAA
to keep wood-like bats out of the college game.

"If that ball comes back one iota faster than wood, they are
breaking their own rules and they are doing it for only one
reason: to protect the profits of baseball bat manufacturers," he
said.

The prospect of bats that enhance hitting has made metal the
overwhelming choice. College and high school players can still
use wood bats, but almost no one does. Ninety percent of the bats
made in America are metal. Last year, consumers spent $93 million
on 2.1 million metal bats, according to the National Sporting
Goods Association.

An uncertain future

Baum and others who favor a return to the wood standard say bat
manufacturers have muzzled the college baseball establishment
through deals that provide free bats to teams and often direct
payments to coaches.

According to a report on aluminum bats prepared by Thurston, some
150 Division I coaches have team and personal contracts with
various bat manufacturers. The bat companies pay some coaches
stipends of $20,000 or more and a few make more than $50,000, the
report said. Bat manufacturers have estimated that their industry
contributes more than $2 million annually in free bats and direct
payments to colleges.

Elliott Avent, N.C. State's baseball coach, receives payments
from Louisville Slugger in return for using their bats, but he
said of the payments, "I don't think that keeps coaches from
speaking up."

Avent said line drives at pitchers are part of game. If the ball
is coming back faster, he said, it's because the players are
bigger and swinging harder. "I think it has more to do with who's
swinging the bat, than the bat itself," he said.

Thurston said comparisons of college players who use wood bats in
the summer Cape Cod League and aluminum bats during the college
season show the bat does make a difference.

Thurston tracked 90 college players in 1997. When the players
switched to wood, their batting averages dropped .107 points.
Their home run production dropped 67 percent.

Jeff Becker, a Duke third baseman and one of the team's leading
hitters, said he felt the difference when he played in the Cape
Cod League. "You go from being one of the better players in your
conference to going up there and hitting .200," Becker said after
losing to the University of South Carolina in a game that
featured 19 runs, 25 hits and five home runs. "It opens your eyes
to the difference between the aluminum and the wooden bats."

I answered your question, now answer mine is there ANYTHING which you think would justify product liability or is the whole world just one big testing ground, with all of us the guinea pigs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

It should probably be pointed out that just about every organized baseball and softball league in the country, that isn't Major League Baseball, uses aluminum bats. If they were that much more dangerous than wood, surely these leagues would not permit them.

The Majors don't allow them not because they're dangerous. They don't allow them because a ball off an aluminum bat travels further than one off a wood bat. I watched Mike Piazza hit batting practice with an aluminum bat, and I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone hit a baseball further. Any ball that he didn't hit on the ground went at least 400 feet. It was crushing.

If the Majors used them, every game would be a nine inning home run derby...

The teams that can use them are paid off to do so, see the article above. Of course profits trump lives in your schemata all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

Oh geeez!!!!! When I was a kid, we played baseball with the adults every weekend and occasionally, we got hit by the ball. You know what we learned? If you didn't want to get hit, you made sure you caught it....might have been a tough lesson but oh well, we loved the game so we kept going back for more. In the fall, we all played football and the same lesson applied, you don't want to get hit by the ball, you catch the ball. Hell, we even played dodge ball!
BTW, kids that sat inside playing chess because they were scared of getting hurt were generally little wusses that mommy babied all the time and they were laughed at!

When you were a girl games had to be called for T-rex attacks

Slon · #66 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Nahh...it's the kid's fault for not bringing an explosives-sniffing dog along.

I see you have nothing to say to address my points. Figures since your argument is stupid.

Quote:

I answered your question, now answer mine is there ANYTHING which you think would justify product liability or is the whole world just one big testing ground, with all of us the guinea pigs?

I answered your question. You're just stalling. But you didn't address my points.

Quote:

The teams that can use them are paid off to do so, see the article above. Of course profits trump lives in your schemata all the time.

Holy shit...

Steve didn't say those leagues should be forced to use aluminum bats. He said that people should have a choice (yes, that concept you cannot understand because you need the government to hold your hand when making monumental decisions like what bat to use or when to take a shit). Then he explained to you why that choice makes sense in many situations and not in others.

Quote:

When you were a girl games had to be called for T-rex attacks

Mrs. M · #67 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

When you were a girl games had to be called for T-rex attacks

Sure, junior....but 48 isn't old anymore....hell, I worked 16 hours on my feet at the Voodoo Festival yesterday and partied while KISS was on stage last night...not too bad for an old lady.

EricOKC · #68 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

I answered your question, now answer mine is there ANYTHING which you think would justify product liability or is the whole world just one big testing ground, with all of us the guinea pigs?

If a product malfunctions and causes harm when used in the way it is intended is one thing. In this case, individual X (the batter) used product A (the bat) functioned as designed by hitting a baseball (product B). Product B also functioned as designed by flying away from the bat. Individual Y (dead kid) did NOT function as designed when his dumb ass decided to either not catch the ball or not move out of the way.

Now, when X uses A to strike B, and A and B function properly but Y is harmed by his own damn stupidity, exactly how is A fiscally responsible? Especially since the tool had to be used by a human being?

Are you fucking retarded?

EagleTed · #69 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

There's no doubt you can hit a baseball harder with an aluminum bat than a wood bat (ash at least, not sure if hickory would be much different, other than the weight factor). The fault's in league policy, not the manufacturers, if there is any legal fault.

I've never understood why the NCAA mandates aluminum bats, when the next step up will never use them. The Major Leagues understand all those precise batting records would fall like leaves in Autumn. Not that they haven't souped up the balls and lowered the pitching mounds to make homeruns easier.

Politico · #70 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

The most tragic part of the story is how this will work in the favor of TORT reform.

Yes it is horrible that a child lost his life, however this was an accident. It is no way comparable to a company knowingly making an unsafe product such as a truck with gas tanks mounted outside the frame.

Mrs. M · #71 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Politico

The most tragic part of the story is how this will work in the favor of TORT reform.

Yes it is horrible that a child lost his life, however this was an accident. It is no way comparable to a company knowingly making an unsafe product such as a truck with gas tanks mounted outside the frame.

I agree that this was a horrible accident but it's lawsuits like this that make tort reform necessary, unfortunately. It's a shame that those with legitimate lawsuits will suffer because of bullshit like this. I wonder why the baseball manufacturer wasn't sued...afterall, the bat didn't strike the child, the ball did.

It's also stupid that products must be labeled with warnings like that on hairdryers telling us not to immerse the electric device in water. If a person doesn't know that, he shouldn't be using it unsupervised in the first place! And exactly what kind of warning label can be put on the bat that anyone would an ounce of common sense doesn't already know?

Politico · #72 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I agree that this was a horrible accident but it's lawsuits like this that make tort reform necessary, unfortunately. It's a shame that those with legitimate lawsuits will suffer because of bullshit like this. I wonder why the baseball manufacturer wasn't sued...afterall, the bat didn't strike the child, the ball did.

It's also stupid that products must be labeled with warnings like that on hairdryers telling us not to immerse the electric device in water. If a person doesn't know that, he shouldn't be using it unsupervised in the first place! And exactly what kind of warning label can be put on the bat that anyone would an ounce of common sense doesn't already know?

Oh, I'm not for TORT reform in the slightest. Companies actually have little liability as it is, without fear of lawsuits, we're dead meat.

Actually, the lengthy post by John Drake has me re-thinking my stance. If there are deaths on a higher percentage out there for metal bats vs wooden bats, then it's obvious that they shouldn't be made in the first place.

Slon · #73 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Politico

Oh, I'm not for TORT reform in the slightest. Companies actually have little liability as it is, without fear of lawsuits, we're dead meat.

Actually, the lengthy post by John Drake has me re-thinking my stance. If there are deaths on a higher percentage out there for metal bats vs wooden bats, then it's obvious that they shouldn't be made in the first place.

What exactly is the problem with not buying these bats if you don't want to bear the obvious risk? Why don't pussies stop buying these bats and let the rest of us buy them if we want to? There are probably more deaths in baseball than there are in table tennis, so does that mean we need to ban the making of all baseball equipment?

Politico · #74 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slon

What exactly is the problem with not buying these bats if you don't want to bear the obvious risk? Why don't pussies stop buying these bats and let the rest of us buy them if we want to? There are probably more deaths in baseball than there are in table tennis, so does that mean we need to ban the making of all baseball equipment?

Well, should we have to do hours of research every time we want to go to the store to buy something?

If the company knows full well that (just throwing a number out there since I don't know what it is) 3 times as many people die from aluminum bats than from wooden ones, should they keep making them?

Let's say there is a car maker, and they have 2 models, one of them is three times more fatal than the other when in an accident, should they keep making the one that kills more people?

Slon · #75 (**permalink**) 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Politico

Well, should we have to do hours of research every time we want to go to the store to buy something?

You have to do hours of research to figure out that getting hit with a baseball in the temple is hazardous to your health?

Quote:

If the company knows full well that (just throwing a number out there since I don't know what it is) 3 times as many people die from aluminum bats than from wooden ones, should they keep making them?

Certainly. Sharper, more powerful tools tend to be more dangerous. A power drill is more dangerous than a hand drill, or at least I would imagine they are. Does that mean they should stop making power drills?

Quote:

Let's say there is a car maker, and they have 2 models, one of them is three times more fatal than the other when in an accident, should they keep making the one that kills more people?

It would be a business decision. They should make it known in some situations if it isn't obvious, but a baseball bat isn't exactly as complex as a car. There are no moving parts or stored energy. You're moving a club with your own hands and hitting a ball. You should be able to figure out that you're hitting the ball in a manner that makes it dangerous if it hits someone in the head.

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