Thread: Stand Your Ground

Originally Posted by adaher

The "Duty to Retreat" laws were just as ridiculous. It basically said that a person had to be cornered to have the right to defend himself.

When in doubt, the right to self defense is supreme. And the defender should not be second-guessed unless the situation is obvious, such as pulling a gun on someone after they push you in a dispute over a girl. Prosecutors should not be charging someone who breaks a mugger's neck for 'excessive force'.

When and where and under what circumstances has that latter thing ever happened?

Two years ago I was being tailgated when a car passed illegallly and almost hit me in a head on collision. I braked suddenly, probably saving the life of the tailgater who would have hit the illegal passer head on if I had swerved off to the shoulder instead. He didn't see it this way (since he didn't see the illegal passer who had time to duck back into his lane due to my braking) and followed me for some miles blinking his lights and blowing his horn. When I finally stopped and walked back to write down his license number (which action later netted him a heavy fine and suspended license) he got out and was about to attack me when he saw my size and thought better of it. If he'd had a gun and killed me it would have been perfectly alright in a stand your ground state, as he could claim I was threatening his life by walking back towards his car. Is this really what you guys think is justice, the guy with the bigger gun is always right, no matter what?

I don't think it would have been considered a justifiable homicide in Florida or any other Stand Your Ground state. All Stand Your Ground laws say is that you don't have to run away when attacked or threatened with imminent attack. Shooting someone in the back because they are going back to their car would certainly not qualify as self-defense.

A better real life example is a holdup at a convenience store. Another guy was standing behind the robber, and he had a concealed carry license and was armed. He calmly pulled out his gun and shot the robber in the head. No charges were filed.

Originally Posted by John Drake

When and where and under what circumstances has that latter thing ever happened?

A friend of mine had to go to court becasue he struck a would be thief with his work-bag as the perp was trying to take the bag.

Another friend had to go to court over using excessive force when throwing a party-crasher out of a mutual friends bachelor party.

Yet another friend had to go to court because he had a traffic altercation (on the highway) the guy in front of him walked to his car and reachedinto the window , that friend (who was working as a prison guard at the time) struck him with the car door, stepped out of his car and picked the guy up and threw him back onto his own car.

another gentleman I know came home and he saw someone sneaking through his garage, he apprehended the trespasser and beat the hell out of him, discovering afterward it was his wife's boyfriend trying to sneak away...

None of them were found guilty of any criminal violations but all of them had to defend themselves in court from prosecution or against law suits filed by others involved.

You certainly have a lot of violent acquaintances.

And John Drake, being a larger-than-normal person you had better think twice about making any gesture someone might consider to be hostile or aggressive in any "stand your ground" state. Your best bet would be to lose 100 lbs and start carrying a firearm at all times.

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

You certainly have a lot of violent acquaintances.

Really? The only one who initiated contact was the one who thought he was being burglarized and his wife was home asleep at the time, every other incident they were reacting to an aggressor.

(we're also talking about a few decades here, in my estimation you are a youngster or have very few friends according to your reply)

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

You certainly have a lot of violent acquaintances.

And John Drake, being a larger-than-normal person you had better think twice about making any gesture someone might consider to be hostile or aggressive in any "stand your ground" state. Your best bet would be to lose 100 lbs and start carrying a firearm at all times.

Unmitigated hyperbolic bullshit. This sounds identical to the Brady Campaign's frantic bleating when shall-issue became the law of the land here. There would be shootings over every fender bender. The streets would be rivers of blood, there would be piles of corpses in every schoolyard.

Complete bullshit, in other words.

Originally Posted by JDJarvis

A friend of mine had to go to court becasue he struck a would be thief with his work-bag as the perp was trying to take the bag.

Another friend had to go to court over using excessive force when throwing a party-crasher out of a mutual friends bachelor party.

Yet another friend had to go to court because he had a traffic altercation (on the highway) the guy in front of him walked to his car and reachedinto the window , that friend (who was working as a prison guard at the time) struck him with the car door, stepped out of his car and picked the guy up and threw him back onto his own car.

another gentleman I know came home and he saw someone sneaking through his garage, he apprehended the trespasser and beat the hell out of him, discovering afterward it was his wife's boyfriend trying to sneak away...

None of them were found guilty of any criminal violations but all of them had to defend themselves in court from prosecution or against law suits filed by others involved.

None of these are what I said, all are unfounded anecdotes and anyone can be sued for anything.



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Originally Posted by Matt in Fla

Unmitigated hyperbolic bullshit. This sounds identical to the Brady Campaign's frantic bleating when shall-issue became the law of the land here. There would be shootings over every fender bender. The streets would be rivers of blood, there would be piles of corpses in every schoolyard.

Complete bullshit, in other words.

The 33 students at the University of Virginia seem a pretty substantial pile to me...This is one of the things about gun nuts that gets to me. Unless it's immediately thousands of bodies they just don't give a fuck. Most foreigners I know already consider us a war zone.

Originally Posted by John Drake

None of these are what I said, all are unfounded anecdotes and anyone can be sued for anything.

You can't sue anyone for "anything", even in this day and age. Please refrain from typing your own anecdotes if you challenge the validity of others doing so.

Originally Posted by John Drake

The 33 students at the University of Virginia seem a pretty substantial pile to me...This is one of the things about gun nuts that gets to me. Unless it's immediately thousands of bodies they just don't give a fuck. Most foreigners I know already consider us a war zone.

Completely unrelated to what I posted, John. I understand you are obsessed with insulting and demonizing gun owners, but could you try to at least grasp what it is that you are responding to?

And, apparently, most of the "foreigners you know" are fucking morons. Are they related to the "guy you know" with the magical handgun that kills unicorns in body armor at 300 yards?

Originally Posted by John Drake

The 33 students at the University of Virginia seem a pretty substantial pile to me...This is one of the things about gun nuts that gets to me. Unless it's immediately thousands of bodies they just don't give a fuck. Most foreigners I know already consider us a war zone.

For every one crazed nut who has a gun, there are thousands upon thousands of legitimate gun owners who have never shot anyone. But don't let that fact get in the way of your continuous rants about gun owners.

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

For every one crazed nut who has a gun, there are thousands upon thousands of legitimate gun owners who have never shot anyone. But don't let that fact get in the way of your continuous rants about gun owners.

More like millions of responsible gun owners for each lunatic.

But you're trying to introduce reasoning and actual evidence into an emotional knee-jerk reaction and that never works.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

Completely unrelated to what I posted, John. I understand you are obsessed with insulting and demonizing gun owners, but could you try to at least grasp what it is that you are responding to?

And, apparently, most of the "foreigners you know" are fucking morons. Are they related to the "guy you know" with the magical handgun that kills unicorns in body armor at 300 yards?

Isn't Virginia a 'shall issue' state, and didn't the guy kill 33 people after the gun was 'shall issued, that seems relevant to me somehow, but conservatives must have a different definition of the word. And unicorns only exist with the crazed hordes of "criminals" you keep your arsenal to protect yourself from.

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

For every one crazed nut who has a gun, there are thousands upon thousands of legitimate gun owners who have never shot anyone. But don't let that fact get in the way of your continuous rants about gun owners.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

More like millions of responsible gun owners for each lunatic.

But you're trying to introduce reasoning and actual evidence into an emotional knee-jerk reaction and that never works.

So since there are millions of gun owners the few hundred killed by crazed nuts (not to even mention the 10,000 killed in other crimes by criminals who would not be able to get a gun EXCEPT, at one point, from legitimate sources, don't count? Isn't that just what I said?