The problem is, music, movie and software companies really need to do more to justify such a hefty price tag.

I purchased Sony Acid for about $300 to use in my music production. While it's a wonderful program, it was certainly not worth the price tag and I do use it to it's maximum potential. All it really did was consolidate a bunch of tasks into one program and made them easier to perform. In other words, I could still get the same results as I did before I purchased the program by using a multitude of freeware programs and a calculator. Sure, it took longer and required a bit of know-how, but is the ease of use worth $300? I'm still not sure.

As for the music industry, they need to make CDs worth buying again. I've seen some artists taking the right approach, such as including a DVD with extras, or a bonus CD of B-sides or such. Heck, I've even seen an artists include a comic book that goes along with the music and...a fold out chess board complete with pieces. These are things you just can't pirate.

In terms of downloading things illegally, I'll admit I do the 'try before you buy' rule. If an artist interests me, I may 'check out' there CD through the internet. If it sucks, I toss it. If it's good, I'll go out and purchase the actual CD. I always have and I always will. In the end, I've actually been buying more CDs since the rise of internet piracy, simply because I'm able to expose myself to a much wider variety of music with much less risk.

__________________
“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

Remember to submit your nominations for the U.S. Politics Online Alternative Awards!

You do raise interesting points, Speakeasy. I guess the real question is how much actually goes into that $300 that you spend on a piece of software. How much does Sony pay for the coders, marketing, support staff, etc.? How much profit does Sony need to make in order to justify the next version, much less the cost for point releases?

My first reaction at a $1500 price tag for Adobe Creative Suit is like yours. But, there's a remarkable amount of software in there, each being quite powerful. Look at what you can do with a tool like Photoshop. Never having used the GIMP, I can't be sure, but I suspect it's nowhere near as powerful. Dreamweaver? Same thing.

It's funny how we can easily justify $10/pill for new medicines because of the development costs, but for software (having a much lower distribution, and little repeat business) we balk.

__________________
Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

I've read the arguments about high prices, excessive profits and poor products. But I don't think any of them gets to the root of this issue. Lots of stuff is overpriced, many products are poorly made, and the recording industry is not the only one that makes alot of profit.

The difference between books/music/software and all the other products for which such claims that can be made is that the chance of getting caught stealing books/music/software is very small. That's why people are willing to steal digital products and not others. It's not the price or the profits or the quality; it all boils down to not getting caught.

__________________
The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

For me its more of a value thing.

When I first started playing games and using apps on the computer, I would rarely need patches as they would work without any bugs (well OK mostly games ) but the last few years I have been disappointed. Even then I continued to purchase these games because I could return them if they simply were not playable or too buggy. Lately however a new policy (at least up here) seems to have spread that games can no longer be returned, simply exchanged for the same title. Instead I 'try' the games out and once it is playable I go out and purchase it (if it becomes playable before the developers abandon it). I have a few developers I am loyal to and generally buy their games outright but they are even giving in to the methods of the other companies.

As for movies and music, my gripe has more to do with them catching up with technology with their releases. I'm not a big movie-goer and generally listen to music on the radio so I'm not really affected. Most movies I do watch are out for rental or I purchase them if they are strongly recommended. I think their market share is declining (their reason for going against piracy) is mainly because they are not motivated by market forces and instead prefer to place the blame on technology. If they could find a new, more modern method of rolling out new releases I think they would find their market share rebound.

For example, who wants to go to the theater to watch a movie when they could stay at home, avoid the extra costs, parking/bussing, not able to pause the movie, sometimes having to put up with noisy people, when they could just stay at home and rent it or buy it off the internet--legally. Mind you the theaters would hurt, as did drive-ins, but that is part of business. I don't see too many 8 track vendors out there anymore either, let alone LP or cassette.

I would even question how many of those pirating movies/music would have actually paid the price in the first place if the internet wasn't available.

__________________
Two-thirds of the world's lawyers practice in the US

I've been around since "Buy American" meant "Made in the USA".

Now that I think about it, movies are one of the things my 'try before you buy' policy doesn't apply to. Although I have a decent HDTV and surround sound system at home, it doesn't come close to matching the large screen and massive sound system of a movie theater. Plus, pirated versions of new movies are usually not very good quality.

While, it may not apply to other areas, the theaters in my area have done a tremendous job of battling piracy by making a trip to the movies more enticing. Basically all the theaters now have large chairs and stadium style seating. Plus, one of the major theaters around here did something insane: they lowered ticket prices. Due to this, they got quite popular, forcing the other theaters in the area to lower their prices as well. Not wanting to be outdone, they lowered prices even more ($4 to see any matinée until 6pm). So, the experience, the comfort and the price are all well worth the trip to the theaters, as opposed to downloading a cam with audience laughter and bad image quality. Perhaps other media industries should take note and instead of whining and complaining about piracy, they should figure out a way to make purchasing the product more enticing.
This is another thing I've thought about. If someone wasn't going to buy a CD in the first place, but then download it for shits and giggles, is anyone really losing a sale?

If someone can't afford a $900 program and is unable to buy it, so they pirate it, is anyone losing a sale?

__________________
“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

Remember to submit your nominations for the U.S. Politics Online Alternative Awards!

Would you demand this of any other industry? Should gas stations stop expecting police to arrest people who drive off without paying for gas because exxon hasn't made their product more enticing? If I steal a car will I be absolved if I tell the judge I could never have afforded to buy that model anyway?

As for who is losing a sale, what about the competitor of that expensive software maker who produces a cheaper product that contains a smaller feature set and slightly more difficult interface? That competitor might expect to sell a copy of his software to lots of people who can't afford the expensive one. If everybody just steals a copy of the expensive one the competitor just lost his whole market.

__________________
The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Honestly, I think it would depend on the numbers of those comitting such crimes. In the thread about immigration you made a point that while the immigrants are here illegally there are just too many to prosecute. In comparison I suspect that far more people pirate software, music, and movies then are in the US illegally, and yet you are willing to allow them to stay in the US because they are there in such high numbers that it would be inconceivable to go after each one. Does it make it any more 'correct' to do? No but why would it be acceptable for one crime but not another?

As well I argue that illegal immigrants are driving down wages, hurting working Americans, as well as increasing costs for education, healthcare etc... which affects every American whereas piracy only trims the bottom line of companies who continue to make profits regardless. Either an illegal act is an illegal act or it is open for interpretation. You can't pick and choose which you prefer to enforce.

I agree to an extent. As far as application software goes, I think the bulk of the piracy is done by those who want to 'fiddle' with it and learn it, not profit from it. Most companies ensure that their software is legal so that they will not suffer any legal action against them.

For games I really can't say. As I mentioned earlier, I fully support those companies who do release a final, relatively bug-free product, however they are few and far between these days. If I bought a car only to find that some of the parts weren't included I would return it immediately. Unfortunately there are no such options when buying games. As for the bulk of the population it likely is done simply to save $$.

I'm not a programmer myself, but I understand and appreciate the time and effort that goes into making these products. In most cases, however, I have learned that it is not the programmers or even the developers who are rushing the product out, but the distributors who are pushing for quicker release times for their products. When I can, I buy directly from the developer because they take pride in their product and are more likely to release a finished product.

__________________
Two-thirds of the world's lawyers practice in the US

I've been around since "Buy American" meant "Made in the USA".

In the immigration case I am not arguing that illegals be allowed to break the law and benefit from it. I'm arguing against chasing down the illegals because the only sane method for removing them is by cracking down on the people who employ them. Only when they are no longer rewarded with a job when they cross illigally will they stop doing so and go back home. Most politicians like very selective enforcement. It's easy for a politician to call for the tracking down of 12 million illegals because they can't vote, they have no money, it gets people excited, and it's never going to happen anyway.
Calling for real enforcement and real penalties for employers is a much different story because employers vote and, more importantly, have the kind of money that translates into campaign contributions.
I have worked in IT for about 15 years. I've seen countless cases of businesses and individuals using pirated software on a daily basis. In fact when I've done freelance work I have had to turn down work on occasions when a business owner asked me to work on equipment which was obviously running pirated software. I also know many people who download bootleg copies of music and movies and never pay a penny for a cd they've listened to online. So while it is true some people only pirate software and music and movies to "test drive" I've known many more who do it for keeps.

__________________
The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Well then it turns out we aren't very different in our views on immigration afer all. Thanks for clarifying.

As for piracy, I would still say that the volume is far greater and less likely to be stopped, let alone prosecuted. The one saving grace might actually be open source products as far as apps go. They not the same quality in some cases as the product they are trying to emulate, however it does provide a legal option for those who want to test run or learn a product.

I can understand the prdicament it would put you in if you were to work on those systems. I wasn't aware it was that widespread in business, aside from the odd small, home-based business. Aside from probably Windows, Office, Nero, etc... I would expect most of the non-business piracy would be more of a hobby/educational nature.

As for movies and music, I can see that changing someday. Musicians could release 1 or 2 songs at a time for download on the internet for a price instead of having to come up with 10 or more all at once. Not only would this improve the quality of the music but it could also benefit the artist(s) if they are able to release their work independently as opposed to through a label.

Movies could also be sold on the net. I'm sure there is a way (you would know better than I would) that someone could be limited to only viewing the movie once on their computer and, for a higher fee (or after a certain period after the initial release, or both) the person could download the movie and save it, burn it, and watch it anytime they want. Like I say, theaters would be hit hard, but if more do the things like Speakeasy mentioned earlier, there would be enough draw for both.

__________________
Two-thirds of the world's lawyers practice in the US

I've been around since "Buy American" meant "Made in the USA".

This was totally the excuse I used for my days as a "data pirate".
For example, Seinfeld: it's a funny show, but not nearly funny enough to shell out $50 per season (at least not for me). If left to choose between not having Seinfeld on DVD or paying for it, I'd choose not to have it.
BUT...
If I can the get Seinfeld for free, then doing so increases my happiness but in no way decreases the producers funds (or even potential funds since I wasn't going to buy it anyway). So the net result of my piracy is just increased happiness with no loss to anyone, right?

Tragically, my wife doesn't see it this way and my days of piracy of over.

Oh, the wife. She a cop?

Thankfully, no. Just very law-abiding.

She wouldn't watch any of my pirated stuff with me and eventually I figured that continuously doing something my spouse considered to be immoral was not the recipe for a happy marriage.

I didn't duck your question, I said they should produce a product that people will pay for.
At outdoor concerts you can buy a ticket and sit close to the stage, or bring a blanket and have a picnic just outside the fence for free. But they still have concerts, they still make money.
The Grateful Dead allowed fans to record at their concerts, (heck, they even would put up a board they could jack into to get a quality recording.)
They only asked that they not sell the recordings, they could trade them, copy them give them away.
The Dead were one of the top money makers for over 20 years.
Because their fan base was so loyal, they didn't have to advertise concerts, and the money at a concert doesn't go through a middleman.

There would be only a small fraction of the pirate activity that abounds today, if the products were properly priced.
But when the supplier decides to extract monopoly profits from the legal market, the market will almost always respond with a black market workaround.

It's all in the convenience, some people pay full price for software, others download it. The cheaper the software, the less people download it. So it's a pricing decision, sell a smaller number of legal versions, but soak the people who buy those, or sell at a price that will discourage the black market.

Microsoft extracts the most money they can from those who buy in the legal market, because they know that paying for OS and desktop software is a short term situation, and they are getting as much as they can before it evaporates.
There will come a time when nearly free, open source software dominates the market. It's a much more robust business model.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

The fact that a particular business model works for one producer does not mean it will work for all. Your citation of grateful dead only applies to live musical presentations and not to the many other digital products being stolen.

Properly priced? The "proper" price is determined by the producer - not the thief.
Future business models do not justify current theft.

__________________
The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Namaste,

I don't plan on stealing anything. I simply don't plan on using such proprietary software at all. I have decided to use open source for everything that I need to do and will rely on software designed to work with such things. If I absolutely needed (not wanted) such software then i would decide on a case-by case basis for how to acquire it. Despite the attitude of many on this forum I think that sometimes the need of the many outweights the wants of the few.

Just for the record I stopped using any Windows based products at all.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

__________________