You're pathetic.

You want me to leave and, if I don't, I'm a troll?

How's that work, exactly?

Is it possible to converse with others here, or does every conversation need to revolve around Slon?

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":

Well... they're not all completly unreasonable opinions and/or objections.

I disagree with most of them and find that others are too shaded by ignorance to really be valid or worthy of consideration.

But I'm not going to argue with you like Steve does either.

Here is a link to the Apollo Program Summary Reports.

I think if you educate yourself some more, and you're a reasonable person, you'll find that there have been infinite benefits to a national space program and that Apollo was well worth the investment of time, money, and lives.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart

You're a troll because you're trolling, Steve. There are plenty of people here that are not leaving and not trolls.You are posting ad hominem while more or less avoiding the topic.I don't know. Why don't you tell me? You appear to be focusing all the might of your ad hominem trolling on me.

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

That's a pretty long read. If you want to point something out to support your argument, you should use quotes.

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

I'm not going to argue with you. I already told you that.

I'm happy to have a discussion if you'd like.

You really haven't provided anything that would serve as a reasonable basis for being opposed to the Apollo Program. You've made it clear that you don't think it was worth the money, and you've made it clear that going to the Moon "because it's hard" is not an acceptable justification in your book.

All well and good.

So...lets try a new tact.

What would it take for you to consider the Apollo Program a success?

What would you like to see out of it to make the expense and effort justifiable?

Bear in mind that the space program may very well not live up to your expectations. And that's fine. I'm sure that there were plenty of people alive in the 15th century that wouldn't have accepted any justification for the European "voyages of discovery".

But considering what you know of the space program let me know what you think would validate it and I'll let you know if it lives up to your expectations.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart

No, you think I'm trolling because I won't discuss it with you.

Hey, tough shit...

I can discuss this fine with others. You, however, are deserving of everything leveled at you...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":

Actually, your ad hominem bullshit has a bit more to do with it.I think I know what I think and why I think it better than you do, Steve. Thanks for the input, though. So discuss it with them. Right now, what you're doing is posting bullshit ad hominem posts. Most-likely because you are starting to become aware of your stunning incompetence as a debater.

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

Is that how it works? We need to do everything unless there is a reason against it? I thought it worked more in the sense that we only do that which is necessary/has reasons for it. Well, alright. Let's start with the huge cost to taxpayers.Is it an acceptable one in your's?That's not how it works. You don't launch an operation and then try to justify it by coming up with goals for it. You create a goal and then create the operation to accomplish it.

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

I don't see why we wouldn't. If there's no good reason not to do something then we should do it.

The space program had a reason. You might not like that reason, and you might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly legitimate reason.

Okay. Give me an itemized cost for the Apollo Program and let me know what your gripes are with it. Do you even know what it cost?

I've already answered that question.

Clearly a goal was created, namely, create, fund, organize, and execute a research and development program to take men from the Earth, land them on the Moon, and return them safely. Clearly the operation to execute that mission was accomplished.

That much is already well established. It's history.

So what's your problem?

I tell you why we did it, you tell me I'm not giving you enough or satisfactory information.

I provide you with a link where you can educate yourself further, you tell me it's too much for you to read.

I ask you to work with me and let me know what types of information you'd like to see, you tell me it doesn't work that way.

What exactly is it that you're fishing for besides a dumbass argument?

Like I said, I'm not going to argue with you. If you want to argue go argue with Steve.

If you want to ask questions I'll do my best to answer them. I'll even do the research for you that you're too lazy to do yourself.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart

If getting a man on the moon and back was the goal, alone, than $1.00 would have been $1.00 too much.But what is the purpose of it? I don't drive to and from work for the sake of getting there and going back.If you are going to tell me that a pointless endeavor such as transporting someone to and from the moon for no reason other than to do it "because it's hard" is reason enough to waste tons of money obtained by force from taxpayers, then please do so.It's not my responsibility to back up your argument. What you are doing is like posting a link to google and saying "google it" when someone asks you to back something up. Do you honestly believe that you cannot focus on the sections backing up your argument using quotes?Alright, you want me to tell you something that would make it worthwhile? Fine. I would consider it worthwhile if all of the resources and time that went into the project were quadrupled and given back to the taxpayers. So, if they used 4 tons of titanium, they better give back 16 to the taxpayers.

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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.

For the third time, I'm not going to argue with you.

Besides, arguing would imply that you're bringing something substantive to the table and you're not. You're only bringing ignorance and asking to be educated.

See, now we're getting somewhere.

Bear in mind that the space program is a publicly funded research and development program, not a transportation program. Reaching the Moon is only part of the goal. Developing the technology to enable an attempt to reach the Moon is equally important and by federal law the technology developed in the process is to be shared with private industry for the betterment of the American standard of living. Investigating space presents challenges and those challenges are met by very bright people working together in such a way that only government could organize them and at such expense that only government could afford to foot the bill.

So lets say you gave me 4 tons of titanium and I told you that I wouldn't be able to repay you in titanium but I would provide you with the following:

-Cordless powertools
-Advanced water purification systems
-Home insulation
-CAT scans
-Laser angioplasty
-MRIs
-CCDs
-Artificial limbs
-Photovoltaic cells
-All-weather tires
-Satellite communications and television
-Microwave ovens
-Fiber optics
-Cell phones
-GPS navigation
-Smoke detectors

Is it worth it to you to live a longer, safer, more comfortable life?

You'd have none of those things if it weren't for the space program.

We had to start somewhere, and that somewhere was going to the Moon.

And all that says nothing about the discoveries that science has made about our World and our Universe.

Maybe that stuff doesn't matter to you. You may not care that we're able to measure the size, mass, rotational velocity, or chemical composition of stars that are 14 million lightyears away. You may not care that we're able to send probes to other planets. And you may not care about supernovae, or quasars, or or black dwarf stars.

Me, on the other hand, I love knowing what's out there. To me that makes it all worth while and worth every penny.

But as they say, a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. The same is true for an eventual journey of billions of trillions of miles through the Cosmos.

And with that, it's been nice having this conversation with you.

If you still don't think our space program is "worth it" then I'm not going to change your mind.

I'll just enjoy the fact that it exists and that there's not a damn thing you can do about that.

Have a great night.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart

That's your opinion, but it doesn't mean your opinion is correct...

When your Mom makes you breakfast in the morning, she can give you Tang. Tang is a result of the space program.

Mmmmmmm...

Well, of course not. You've gotta' pick up those newspapers, after all.

Slon, we understand that you think it wasn't worthwhile Others believe otherwise.

Soot's named a number of technological advancements, some great and some small, which have come about as a direct result of the space program. I think "velcro" should be on their, too, but I'm not certain.

You know, it's funny. Everyone here could say "Yeah, it was probably a waste of money", and the only impact that would have would be you being able to say "I WIN!".

You should really go ahead and admit that being able to say that is all that really matters to you. If you don't realize that's the case, you're the only one here who doesn't...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":

I think you're right.

But I think puting together a really comprehensive list would be virtually impossible. Theyre are just way too many things that have come from the space program.


LMAO. That's exactly how it feels trying to discuss something with the guy. It like you're talking to a little kid who's being contradictory just for the sake of being contradictory.

He doesn't seem to know anything, he doesn't really say anything, he certainly doesn't prove anything and he asks silly, open ended questions and then tells you your argument is weak when you can't answer them to the degree he has arbitrarially (and secretly) set.

The only thing I gained from having this discussion with him is a knowledge of that fact. I doubt he gained anything either, or really even bothered to read anything I had to say for that matter.

Complete waste of time and I doubt I'll bother with him again.

If he wants to claim that he WON!!! our discussion he's more than welcome to it. I'm taking my toys and going home anyway.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart

Actually, it's not "like" that, it is that...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":

I consider it horrific given that we're well on our way to toasting this planet.

I would not like to see humanity infect space until we've learned to live sustainably upon this one.

Reaching out to consume another planet (after consuming this one) doesn't strike me as admirable, but rather irresponsible and decadent.

Consuming one planet's resources is not sufficient?

I see the drive for space as ego driven entirely - escapism at best.

Nothing admirable about what it represents from a philosophic perspective.

No.

I think it just reinforces our worst tendencies and bad prejudices about ourselves.

I don't like the idea that we as humans are the center of the universe and that the whole universe exists for our amusement, use or abuse, as we see fit. That is just so arrogant.

I'd venture to say that Armstrong's point was "one small step for man, one giant step for mankind". Armstrong probably is asserting that his personal experience pales next to the 'giant step for mankind'.

Suffice it to say, Armstrong isn't a philosopher. And I don't see any kind of giant step for mankind here at all. If anything, I just see further evidence of everything that is wrong with the human species degrading our environment. Armstrong's statement fits this to a 't' and that's not pretty or something to be proud of. The technical wizardry that took him to the moon is the same technical wizardry what we've used to rape the planet.

I'd further suggest that the same ideology that took the Americans to the moon is the same ideology that has them caught in a quagmire in Iraq. This is a need to show others how