What is the point? - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Tethys · #1 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007

I read this article today in the Sydney Morning Herald.

Quote:

New doco for Apollo 13 astronauts

Date: September 14 2007

John Schwartz

THEY are old men now, and it is hard to fathom that it has been 38 years since the first of them set foot on lunar soil.

Michael Collins, who orbited the moon during the Apollo 11 mission while Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin took their lunar module down to the surface, says that on the around-the-world tour that NASA sent them on after the flight, "Wherever we went, people, instead of saying, 'Well, you Americans did it' - everywhere they said, 'We did it. We, humankind, we, the human race, we, people, did it'."

Collins's voice breaks slightly as he says: "I thought that was a wonderful thing. Ephemeral, but wonderful."

It is from one of the most powerful, lump-in-the-throat moments of an exceptional new documentary, In the Shadow of the Moon that tells the story of the Apollo space program, the race to reach the moon.

The film, by the British director David Sington, has the backing of Ron Howard, the director of Apollo 13. It tells a story that has been told before, of course, in books and films and miniseries.

The stories will be told again in the coming documentary The Wonder of it All, which takes a similar, in-their-own-words approach, and in others that will surely arrive as the 40th anniversary of the first moon landing rolls around.

Astronauts make tough reviewers - they tend to prefer accuracy to drama - but three Apollo astronauts interviewed praised Sington's work.

Alan Bean, an astronaut on Apollo 12, said reaching the moon "has implications for young people, so they see what they can do, what their generation can do".

Bean continued: "This is a nice thing; this is what our generation can do. What is your generation going to do? It's got to be better than this. Maybe it could be an inspiration."

Harrison Schmitt, the geologist astronaut who made the last landing on the moon in 1972 with Eugene Cernan (and who later served a term in the US Senate), said: "I'm not a good judge of entertainment filming and programming; I would do all of that differently, and go broke."

But, Schmitt added, he would have liked to see a greater focus on the scientific benefits of the missions, including advances in geology and the rapid improvements in existing technologies such as microelectronics that were pushed by the program.

In the film the personalities of the less famous astronauts come through. Collins is funny and engaging, and Cernan is precise and passionate.

Charles Duke jnr is eloquent in talking about how he felt being the capsule communicator on Apollo 11, and about his experiences on Apollo 16. Edgar Mitchell, who flew on Apollo 14, speaks with an almost mystical awe about his flight.

The astronauts also talk about seeing "the whole circle of the Earth" at once, as Duke puts it. "That jewel of Earth was just hung up in the blackness of space," he says, holding his hands out, cupped, as if to cradle the sphere.

Will the film appeal to those who did not experience the thrill of having watched the first steps on the moon live on television? Aldrin said he hoped the documentary would catch on. "I am looking for things that are going to stimulate the American people" to find the value in space exploration, he said, "the inspirational, the innovational and just the human quest to discover".

Of the surviving moon walkers, only Armstrong declined to go on camera. That is not unusual, since he is known to avoid the spotlight. Sington exchanged a few emails with Armstrong, who explained, as Sington recalled, that "if you want to talk to me about my personal experience, walking on the moon, you're missing the point".

After all, Armstrong had said, "One small step for a man," not "one small step for me," Sington recalled. And so, Sington said, he came to accept Armstrong's decision, and to have Armstrong's as the only face that is not updated. "He's the one astronaut who stays young," he said. "Somehow, to me, that's satisfying."

Is there in that, perhaps, a tiny bit of rationalisation?

"If he'd said, 'Yes, I'll do an interview,' I'd have been delighted."

The New York Times

www.smh.com.au - New doco for Apollo 13 astronauts

Okay, some of the points I thought would be good for discussion:
Firstly, what do you think of space exploration being viewed as humanity’s quest?

Michael Collins said that he thought it was a wonderful thing. I do too. I mean credit where credit is due, and the Moon landings were an American achievement, and Sputnik and the first man in Space were achieved by the Soviet Union. German scientists and engineers contributed to both programs, and also the research and ideas of great minds from the past and from around the world made it all possible.

Questions to discuss include gathering knowledge of our solar system; meeting the technological and cost challenges of space missions; the exploitation of resources; military and security questions; and the politics of joint human ventures.

But it is the philosophical questions that most interests me. I mean the way we view our future as humanity, and the transition from Earth to space as a specie.

The flip side of how we view the journey to the Moon, to near-Earth space habitats, to Mars - or beyond - is how we view “that jewel of Earth”, as Charles Duke jnr describes it., . Yuri Gagarin’s first words when his Vostok craft went into orbit was “I can see the Earth!”.

So, secondly, can space exploration help us to look at ourselves from above, so to speak?

And thirdly, what do you think Neil Armstrong meant when he said “if you want to talk to me about my personal experience, walking on the moon, you're missing the point".

What is "the point"?

Tethys

noahath · #2 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007

I think the point is that it is promoting philosophical and scientific advancement. All of the great scientific advancements in history, such as the discovery of radioactivity by Madame Currie, etc were all done by accident. No one set out with a specific mission in mind. We don't yet know what we will discover with our continued exploration of space; but it's not only the physical exploration, but the act of discovery in developing the scientific tools to actually explore space, eg creating better fuels, engines, etc. Humans by nature are an inquisitive species. We explored our continent, then the seas, then the air and now space.

Tethys · #3 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007

Some good points, there, Noahath.

I chuckled at a reader’s’ letters in today’s Sydney Morning Herald, commenting on an article that had stated Australians had invented the ring- pull can.

Quote:

…whilst the ring-pull can was being invented Americans were landing on the moon. Ultimately, which was more useful?

www.smh.com.au - US duplicitous tactics failed in Afghanistan and Iran and will fail in Iraq

Actually, the credit for inventing the ring-pull can goes to an American, Ernie Fraze. But the pertinent point here is that this nifty idea led to Fraze being commissioned by NASA to design valves for the oxygen delivery systems on its launch vehicles.

Inventor of the Week: Archive

NOTES & THEORIES: The beer can: the only Modern icon to come in four- Independent on Sunday, The - Find Articles

So there is for certain a synthesis between Earthly discoveries and the pursuit of space exploration, and, whether these developments progress from Earth to Space or Space to Earth, it’s all part of humanity’s journey of discovery.

Tethys

El_Zoido · #4 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007

As Wikipedia states on the Subject of exhaustible raw materials... the only possible hope to keep our lifestyle and technological level is mining on other worlds or space bodies....

(I am not talking fossile fuels... I mean elements that just exist due to the Big Bang and are very rare on this planet and needed for our todays and future lifestyle... like Platinum or Iridium which are very important for electronics)

And secondly and more importantly...
Earth is a very small place and very important for us... with all things that are important, it is better to have a spare planet

AND Space is so big and wonderous... So many stars in our milky way... even Sci-Fi rarly travels to other galaxies... just imagine, all those places and wonders to see... it makes you wanna go! doesn't it?

And, there are much worse and much more common things to use rockets for...

DGG · #5 (**permalink**) 09-15-2007

I believe space exploration is a human quest. I believe settlements and colonisation of other celestial bodies is a human quest.

Mankind is the only species who has the ability to save the life of Earth from the armageddon that will eventually happen when the Sun grows too old, or earlier if Earth would be hit by a large asteroid or some other truly world shattering event would occur.

Space exploration, like all exploration, gives us a better view of the world and ourselves. It is not wrong to say it enables us to look at ourselves from above.

I believe Neil Armstrong is not interested in talking about his own memories, but thinks "the point" is the benefits of the space programme in general, perhaps not the Appolo programme in particular but rather travels to the Moon and further in particular. Not that I know much about Neil Armstrong and his views, but I can always make a guess.

Tethys · #6 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

As Wikipedia states on the Subject of exhaustible raw materials... the only possible hope to keep our lifestyle and technological level is mining on other worlds or space bodies....

(I am not talking fossile fuels... I mean elements that just exist due to the Big Bang and are very rare on this planet and needed for our todays and future lifestyle... like Platinum or Iridium which are very important for electronics)

I watched a BBC documentary called “Moon for Sale”.

In part it looked at the debate about the potential of mining Helium-3 deposits in moon rocks, the gas which could provide an abundant and clean energy source for Earth’s needs for hundreds of years into our future.

BBC - Horizon - Moon for Sale

Of course there would be cost and technological issues to mining the Moon and developing fusion plants.

Astronaut Harrison Schmitt actively supports the mining of the moon.

Astronaut Edgar Mitchell believes it would be better to first find ways to become energy sufficient on Earth.

A fascinating program.

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

And secondly and more importantly... Earth is a very small place and very important for us... with all things that are important, it is better to have a spare planet

Yes, but I hope we don’t treat our new planet like this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

AND Space is so big and wonderous... So many stars in our milky way... even Sci-Fi rarly travels to other galaxies... just imagine, all those places and wonders to see... it makes you wanna go! doesn't it?

Oh yes! I belong to a space enthusiasts club. I won’t ever get the chance to travel into space, but my mind, heart and soul can still imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

And, there are much worse and much more common things to use rockets for...

So true, El Zoido

Tethys

Tethys · #7 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

I believe space exploration is a human quest. I believe settlements and colonisation of other celestial bodies is a human quest.

I believe this too. I think it would lead to our evolution in some respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

Mankind is the only species who has the ability to save the life of Earth from the armageddon that will eventually happen when the Sun grows too old, or earlier if Earth would be hit by a large asteroid or some other truly world shattering event would occur.

I don’t know if the potential will ever be attained to “evacuate” Earth in the face of such scenarios. ,

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

Space exploration, like all exploration, gives us a better view of the world and ourselves. It is not wrong to say it enables us to look at ourselves from above.

Yes. I think viewing the Earth and ourselves from above creates a different attitude

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

I believe Neil Armstrong is not interested in talking about his own memories, but thinks "the point" is the benefits of the space programme in general, perhaps not the Appolo programme in particular but rather travels to the Moon and further in particular. Not that I know much about Neil Armstrong and his views, but I can always make a guess.

I guess his silence will keep us guessing and reflecting. And that’s not a bad thing.

I think you put some valid thoughts forward, there, DGG.

Yuri Gagarin and Neil Armstrong have the distinction of being the first human in space and first man on the moon, respectivly, and as much as this may be a unique privilege, it must have its other side.

At first I kind of read it as him not wanting it to be about himself. But somehow I think his conflict is even deeper than him saying that it should be about the quest. Perhaps it comes down to him not being able to voice his inner thoughts to a world that is not ready for hearing what he has to say.

Time to go to sleep and think of wonders. Good night all from this little corner of the Earth.

Tethys

DGG · #8 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tethys

...
I don’t know if the potential will ever be attained to “evacuate” Earth in the face of such scenarios.
...

If the Sun dies 4.5 milliard years from now, as many scientists believe, then why not?

Steve · #9 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

If the Sun dies 4.5 milliard years from now, as many scientists believe, then why not?

Quite honestly, I have to wonder why we're concerned with something that'll happen so far out in the future...

DGG · #10 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Quite honestly, I have to wonder why we're concerned with something that'll happen so far out in the future...

Well, I guess some of us are, because we can. We have the ability to imagine a far future.

Most humans are not, though. Most humans are not even concerned with what may happen in the next five or ten years. It must be a more down to earth approach to reality than being concerned with what may happen when the Sun starts to die. However, I am more concerned with the fact that so many people do not seem to think much, if anything, about the near future than I am with the fact that some like to think once in a while about the very far future.

Tethys · #11 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

If the Sun dies 4.5 milliard years from now, as many scientists believe, then why not?

It’s not so much “Why not?” for me, It’s just very challenging to conceive how x-billions of people would be able to be transported away from our Solar System. But I do agree it’s important to think about an evacuation plan for Earthlings. Of course, in the future, this challenge may not be as awesome as it appears today.

As a side note, it is interesting that we have a name for our Galaxy, the “Milky Way, but we do not have a distinct name, at least one globally in use, for our Solar System. I know “Solar” is a derivative of the Latin for “Sun”, but both the words “Sun” and “Solar System” are used interchangeably as generic terms for “Star” and “Star System”. We do not have a “proper name” for our Solar System.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

Well, I guess some of us are, because we can. We have the ability to imagine a far future.

Most humans are not, though. Most humans are not even concerned with what may happen in the next five or ten years. It must be a more down to earth approach to reality than being concerned with what may happen when the Sun starts to die. However, I am more concerned with the fact that so many people do not seem to think much, if anything, about the near future than I am with the fact that some like to think once in a while about the very far future.

Well said.

Tethys

Steve · #12 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

I am more concerned with the fact that so many people do not seem to think much, if anything, about the near future.

Then why discuss the far future?

Tethys · #13 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Quite honestly, I have to wonder why we're concerned with something that'll happen so far out in the future...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Then why discuss the far future?

Steve, two posts from you so far here, and you have not contributed any thoughts of your own on my OP.

US and other scientists are in fact studying the projections that DGG cites in his post.

For example, the Lincoln Near-Earth Asteroid Research (LINEAR), tracks asteroids to detect any that may be on a path for Earth.

Lincoln Near-Earth Asteroid Research (LINEAR)

Other NASA-funded research examines how asteroids may have hit Earth in the past.

The Great Dying

And there is plenty of interest in what will happen when our Sund dies…

epowiki: Project Secure Human Destiny

Those questions are interesting, even purely from an intellectual curiosity perspective. But given our Earth and Solar System are part of the physics of the Universe, any study of the past or the future is relevant to us in the present.

But if this particular question is not of concern to you, then there are plenty of other questions you could discuss.

Tethys

Steve · #14 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tethys

Steve, two posts from you so far here, and you have not contributed any thoughts of your own on my OP.

But if this particular question is not of concern to you, then there are plenty of other questions you could discuss.

Tethys

Geez. I need to have more coffee before I start reading such whines.

Fine, here ya' go: If the sun dies 4.5 gajillion years from now, who cares?

Why is it a concern?

My thought is that, if the sun is going to die, then it's going to die. Not only is there nothing we can do about it, but the likelihood of humans being around to see it is, I think, slim...

Tethys · #15 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Geez. I need to have more coffee before I start reading such whines.

Fine, here ya' go: If the sun dies 4.5 gajillion years from now, who cares?

Why is it a concern?

My thought is that, if the sun is going to die, then it's going to die. Not only is there nothing we can do about it, but the likelihood of humans being around to see it is, I think, slim...

Go put the kettle on, Steve. and have another cuppa.

Okay, so you don’t see the point of planning for far future eventualities. Fine.

Reread the OP and the questions I suggested for general discussion:

what do you think of space exploration being viewed as humanity’s quest? (see the notes in the OP)

How do you view humanity’s transition from Earth to space as a specie.

Can space exploration help us to look at ourselves from above?

And the theme question is this one:

What do you think Neil Armstrong meant when he said “

“if you want to talk to me about my personal experience, walking on the moon, you're missing the point".

What is "the point"?

Tethys